Just one more thought on the matter, for me tonight:

I've deployed an app using Tomcat Standalone (www.hotel.us) and while there
have been several issues that were a little less than obvious, I have found
a solution to every single one of them and am overall pretty satisfied with
tomcat.  but this one little thing would force me to have to go to apache.
IMHO, it would be a shame to not be able to use the product for this one
little reason.

Neal


-----Original Message-----
From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:18 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: RewriteRules and Standalone Tomcat


Well, a few things come to mind.

1. A comparison was made - using tomcat as a web server is like racing a mac
truck.  Well, for someone new to tomcat and apache (I just arrived from
microsoft/iis land) the correct usage pattern was less than obvious ... I
just knew that most people used tomcat/apache.  I could have never
anticipated this sort of issue.  If this sort of issue is defended by the
community (302s etc) then there should be a blatant disclaimer when
downloading the standalone that it is not intended for production use.

2. As to teh chicken and egg analogy - that's a good point - "does theory or
an unfortunate reality dictate the direction of the product?" I guess I
would defer to point #1.  If the product is not going to address the very
real issues of production use, it should make it clear to users that it is
not indended for production use.  Granted the ideal is to sluff off such
petty and rediculous issues put forth by the search engine defenses, but at
the end of that argument the issue still exists as does the sobering fact
that this will be a significant problem for anyone who chooses to deploy a
commercial application using the product.

neal

-----Original Message-----
From: Turner, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:27 PM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: RewriteRules and Standalone Tomcat



Sounds like the makings of a good debate, and a classic "chicken and egg"
problem.  Does Tomcat submit to how some search engines work, even if there
are reasons not to do so, or do search engines accept 302 behavior?  Do ALL
search engines disregard 302s?  Think about it...search engines probably
disregard 302s because of abusive behavior in the past from a minority of
web site owners.  Should that dictate the design of a major software
application?

John

-----Original Message-----
From: neal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:29 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: RewriteRules and Standalone Tomcat


Hmm.  But the fact still remains that Tomcat Standalone will not be a
commercially viable http server on its own if it can't display a welcome
page without redirecting to the page.  Dispite all of Tomcat's other
abilities, not having this ability is like shooting the standalone notion in
the foot.  Because of the search engine spidering implications of starting
off with a 302 redirect, a Tomcat-standalone-hosted website will likley
never place well in most major search engines.  So aside from theory ...
this is not a good "feature", certainly not a viable one.  :(

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:07 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: RewriteRules and Standalone Tomcat




On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Turner, John wrote:

> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:33:50 -0500
> From: "Turner, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Tomcat Users List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 'Tomcat Users List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: RewriteRules and Standalone Tomcat
>
>
> No problem, glad to help.  Remember, Tomcat is not a HTTP server.  It
> supports HTTP as a matter of convenience.  You can run Tomcat all day
> long without a HTTP or HTTPS connector, and as far as I know, there is
> nothing
in
> the spec that says Tomcat has to meet certain requirements for HTTP or
> HTTPS.  CoyoteConnector is HTTP/1.1 compliant, but again, that's more
> for convenience and compatibility than a design requirement.
>

Auoting from Servlet Specification, Version 2.3, Section 1.2:

    All servlet containers must support HTTP as a protocol
    for requests and responses, but additional request/response
    based protocols (such as HTTPS (HTTP over SSL) may be
    supported.  The minimum required version of the HTTP
    specification that a container must implement is HTTP/1.0.
    It is strongly suggested that containers implement the
    HTTP/1.1 specification as well.

So, a servlet container (which is either Tomcat standalone or
Tomcat+Apache) *must* support HTTP.

> I'm sure the folks on tomcat-dev could shed some more light on it.
>

Of course, this statement does nothing to resolve the issue of what the
right welcome file behavior is -- the HTTP spec is silent about that :-).

> John

Craig


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