Hello Tim,
> >
> > To be frank - I found it a PITA. Now I to be honest a lot of this info
> > I have since found, but it is scattered - so it's not easy. So at this
> > point I'm going to be a real critical bastard.
>
> Okay, I guess the next question is what does this apply to?
Everything I tried.
> Getting the tpclient-pywx stable release?
> Getting the tpcient-pywx development release?
> Getting the tpserver-cpp stable release?
> Getting the tpserver-cpp development release?
I started from CVS/Darcs versions, I could get the client to install
eventually after guessing a few dependancies - I couldn't give them to
you now, I'd have to apt-get remove stuff.
This may not be 100% accurate - I didn't take notes.. but looking at
what I downloaded and installed:
First: tpclient-pywx
-> Barfed
Many apt-gets on pythony things
-> Barfed
Realised the 'tpsomthing' was probably a thousand parsec lib,
and
worked out it was probably libtpclient-py missing
-> Barfed
Added in libtpproto-py
Now have a working client.
Okay first server won't let me log in, second won't resolve... started
trying to get a local server.
Download tpserver-py -
-> Barfed.
Gave up, after seeing a message about using the cpp version on
the
website (or forums) - not sure which.
(Also report bug about nmap being all bad at this time).
Download tpserver-cpp
-> Configure... failed
apt-get lots more
-> Configure... failed
Download libtprl
-> Configure... failed
apt-get a little more
-> Configure && make && sudo make install
-> Back to tpserver-cpp... configure && make && sudo make install
% hash -r # update shell paths
% tpserver-cpp
default-load-handler: cannot open input file:
"/home/nash/work/thousandparsec/../modules/tpcl/mzscheme/designstruct.scm" (No
such file or directory; errno=2)
default-load-handler: cannot open input file:
"/usr/local/share/designstruct.scm" (No such file or directory; errno=2)
zsh: segmentation fault (core dumped) tpserver-cpp
Urr...
Spot a suspicious ..
% cd ~/work/thousandparsec/tpserver-cpp/tpserver
% ./tpserver-cpp
Nothing....
In another shell...
nmap localhost...
Nope, no new ports open...
No idea...
Download stable release...
Repeat process...
Search website... work out reference to conf file is _really_ necessary
and it is unable to find it's own in a sane way.
Uncomment stuff in config file, run tpserver -C nash.conf
Now it is working.
Note I followed typical user patters - didn't read doco, just expected
the default to work.
> > So some things I'd like to see/see improved:
> > * A quick overview of how to set things up
> > - It would be nice to have every step from the first apt-get/yum etc to
> > entering data for the first turn. Currently it stops at running the
> > server.
>
> I'm assuming this only refers to setting up a server?
See below & above.
> > * Dependencies - Both distro and TP related ones
> > - The Python modules needed aren't always easy to figure out since
> > normally you find yourself staring at a stack trace, and need to work
> > out which python-X lib you need to install.
>
> I'm guessing this applies to the client?
>
> The following URL should list everything you need for the stable version
> of the client,
> http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/gettingstarted.php#gamer
Not quite... At that point I have a window open, and I need to figure
out how to connect to a server. I personally could not get it to
connect to the main servers (the second test server didn't resolve at
the time). Hence I found my next step was to set up a server.
Also setting up an account 'New' wasn't what I expected. I was thinking
it meant "New Game", not "Create an account".
> I've yet to write a "Getting Started" for developers.
May be useful for AI comp...
> The tpclient-pywx should be checking for all it's required dependencies
> in the requirements.py. If you got a traceback instead of an informative
> message, could you please post a bug report?
Didn't see that script. Just tried to run it directly, then tried the
setup.
> > - The C++ ones are better, at least the configure ones are meaningful
> > -> However it would be nice if ALL the dependencies where
> > checked
> > before it barfed - a nice "You are missing the following libs:
> > libfoo (>2.3)
> > libbar
> > ...
> > This is a general autoconf bitch however - it is tough to get
> > it all
> > right.
>
> I don't think you can even do this with autoconf?
You can. Basically when you do your requirements if one fails you note
it and continue as long as you can (avoiding expensive tests). Then
dump a list everything that failed as you exit.
But as I said, it's a PITA, and autoconf doesn't make it easy. I was
impressed that inkscape does this in the build for the things it tests
with pkg-config (gtkmm and friends)
> > * More dependencies: The webpage should list the exact list of modules
> > one needs to check out of darcs[2], and what order they need to be
> > built/installed.
>
> This will be in the developers getting started when it is actually
> written.
This is probably the document I'm more after.
> > * Which server and client versions we should use... Python or CPP?
> > Which is easiest to get going etc? Which works.
>
> The Python server will very soon become the easiest to setup and install
> (as it will be packaged with a setup wizard). However at the moment it
> is in a state of flux as I added SQLite support a fix a few other
> problems.
This should also improve things ;-) Unfrotunately the simple fact is a
new user will try it now, and either get it to work or give up on it.
> I agree that the C++ server needs better information about setup.
Once set up it all seems good.
> > * Once a server is installed, tpserver-cpp should just work.
> > Having to set up a config file (by default in /etc/... too!) is
> > annoying. The supplied config file should be ready to go.
>
> What should the default config file do? There are currently two possible
> rulesets that could be running.
Then pick the most advanced complete one. My understanding was that
only minisec was actually fully implemented... I pulled that from the
website somewhere.
Even better would be if one server could run multiple games with
different rule sets....
> > Even better would be a quick start in the client to launch the server
> > with the appropriate parameters.
>
> This is coming when tpserver-py is integrated into tpclient-pywx.
Does that allow muliplayer though? I was thinking of a more basic
system("./tpserver-cpp --some --magic --args");
> > Positives:
> > There is a lot of documentation on the website, which is _Very_ nice.
> > the main problem I think is organisation - most of the info is there,
> > just not in an easily digestable format.
>
> Can you point out where
You have already given two. That forum post is gold - pure gold. The
getting started is the first half, the instructions on how to start the
server and get the configuration is the other half.
> The reason we use the SF bug tracker,
> - Bugzilla and Request Tracker are extremely heavy and very
> complicated.
Bugzilla can be set up quite nicely with "simple" and advanced modes.
> - It increases our activity counter on SF making us more visible.
Doesn't help when people don't use it because it's pants however.
> > - Scanning existing bugs is a PITA for non-devs[3]
>
> I don't find this a problem? I can quickly filter the bugs into
> different sections and filter on keywords. What exactly is missing for
> scanning existing bugs?
Between the colours, the way things are formatted, I just find it hard
to search for stuff in the system. This could be me though. I also
find it _slow_.
>
> > - It timed out when trying to upload a core file for a bug (and the
> > whole bug was not reported!) - fortunately I was patient enough to file
> > it again without the core dump.
>
> I find this a little unusual. How big is your coredump? I've attached
> files of about 2mb to a bug report fine.
-rw------- 1 nash nash 3584000 Jan 20 16:26 core
I have only 128k uplink.
> > So another recommendation I'd have is _please_ find another BTS.
>
> Do you have any other suggestions? Bugzilla and RT both need full time
> keepers and have huge instruction manuals (I've used both and found the
> extra features pointless most of the time). Despite good reports I have
> also found trac to be totally useless. gnats is to use as well.
Maintain bugzilla here. Haven't had to do anything much for our company
aside from the big set up cost. After that - zero maintainance. Now I
find it a dream - saved searchs, great search interface, bookmarks for
submitting bugs, readable notifications (although it tends to send a few
too many).
> Any other suggestions? Simplicity is the key.
Not really - you have covered the top ones.
> > A while yet - however it may be worth looking at an automatic check out
> > of required client and server modules, with an 'install' script - of
> > course when it fails... it will fail terribly. It is a lot of work, so
> > for now maybe the best thing to do will be to make the required info
> > easier to find for newbies.
>
> We currently have "setup" and "update" scripts in the scratchpad
> repository. It might not be has hard as it sounds.
Get that to go, and it should be all good.
Anyway, hope there is some useful info in this post...
Regards,
nash
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