It's so damn annoying that I've to spend my rare time having to hack
nearly every simple plugin to get it work
I agree, but this is why I contribute back my changes. If everyone does
this, eventually it all just works(tm), right? Also, plugins not working
out of the box has nothing to do with packaging up trac with an
installer, or better documenting how to install it.
and to set up many repeating jobs by hand
How so? I do not find myself doing this at all.
Your statement is very unbalanced - if I understood you correctly,
everybody who is no experienced Python programmer even doesn't
have the right to use Trac - because trac is only for cool programmers.
That was not my intended message. What I meant was that you need to
*learn* things like how your systems go together in order to properly
administer them.
Many experienced Unix admins aren't Python programmers
I wasn't either, until I started using Trac. It is still my least
favorite language.
and even don't
have the time to learn it - only because 1!!!! of their tools lacks
convenience functions like an installer!
This argument is a paper tiger. You don't need to learn python to run
the existing installer. You can just read the INSTALL file and follow
the (well documented) instructions.
And your time estimations fail in reality: I'm using Trac (and programming
and bugfixing plugins for it) for 3 years now - but a new Trac (especially
a version jump like 0.10 to 0.11) took me nearly a week, until all of my
plugins worked (often this isn't the case, due to version
incompatibilities).
I've only been doing the 0.11.x upgrades, so your point may be valid.
AND:
Many companies try tools like Redmine etc. and even don't know about Trac
and even if they do - it's (even for a hardcore user like me) hard to tell
them,
But why do you care? If they're using Redmine, and they're happy doing
so, then where is the issue there? If they want a demo, isn't that what
the t.e.o site is for?
what Trac can do and how to set it up (no, they aren't noobs, yes -
there are many IT professionals who aren't cool Python hackers).
Meanwhile, there are quite a few people who regard installing Trac as
positively trivial - the hardest part being the *optional* Apache
installation. So, if what we're arguing is "is Trac too difficult to set
up", I'd argue "No. Because, in my personal experience, everyone who
I've talked to who has had to set up Trac has found it well documented
and trivial".
I agree with your statement that opening the project for simple users
(noobs) will increase the amount of support drastically. But be honest:
That can be influenced and solved. And: Which script kiddy needs Trac?
I'd argue that a very large portion of what constitutes IT these days
are at that level. Heck, Microsoft made a whole marketing push out of it
back in the NT 4 days - why hire expensive Unix experts when Windows is
easy so the labor is cheap!
And: The lack of documentation is a typical developer problem -
why do argue against documentation?
I'm not. However, the documentation *I* would like to see written is
*not* yet another "this is how you install Trac" howto (because there
are quite a pile of them out there, where the INSTALL file is really
quite sufficient), but rather extensive documentation of all the
interfaces, APIs, etc.
Please: Skip telling me "sources are the best documentation" - thats
a reason to get fired in my job.
I don't recall ever saying that. Indeed, that's what I use Trac for the
most - documenting how all the bits work.
PS: You understand to demotivate people who want to contribute! Good work!
So any criticism of a proposal is demotivational? I thought the
discussion would be good for focusing our efforts as a community, as to
*where* exactly we wanted to spend our time.
To put it another way:
Let's say, for example, that a lot of the core maintainers read this
thread - your initial post, several folks agreeing with you, and they
said "well, it seems like everyone agrees with this fellow, maybe we
should spend some time on that". Meanwhile, there's a bunch of other
people who didn't want to criticize the idea who really don't care.
However, they didn't speak up when they had the chance, and engage in
the discussion, so they really can't complain, can they?
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