Oh, also:

4. Require SCTs for all certs in the chain, which prevents hiding the
alternate intermediate.

On 15 March 2016 at 13:50, Ben Laurie <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 14 March 2016 at 22:15, Rob Stradling <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 14/03/16 21:39, Ben Laurie wrote:
>>>
>>> On 14 March 2016 at 14:39, Stephen Kent <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The logged bogus certificate can be detected by a Monitor (third party or
>>>> self), that is watching the log(s) to which the certificate was posted.
>>>> Thus
>>>> the detection aspect of CT still works with regard to this certificate.
>>>> When
>>>> this certificate is detected, the CA that logged the certificate may
>>>> revoke
>>>> it, i.e., place it on a CRL or create an OCSP response for it. However, a
>>>> browser checking a CRL or OCSP response will not match this revocation
>>>> status data against the other, not-logged bogus certificate. (This is
>>>> because revocation status checking is performed in the context of a
>>>> certificate path and the two bogus certificates have different
>>>> certificate
>>>> paths.) Revoking a detected, bogus certificate  may be the best strategy
>>>> for
>>>> the malicious CAs. It makes issuance of the bogus certificate appear to
>>>> be
>>>> an accident, and thus browser vendors may not feel the need to make an
>>>> entry
>>>> on their blacklists for the bogus certificate or the CA that issued it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I do not believe this is correct. And if it is, it is a serious bug in
>>> revocation that has nothing to do with certificate transparency.
>>>
>>> Also, I don't get the logic of the "not-logged bogus certificate",
>>> which is identical to the logged certificate - and is therefore
>>> logged. And not bogus.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> The "two" bogus certificates are one and the same.  They will contain the
>> same CRL and/or OCSP URLs.  The outcome of a CRL/OCSP check will be exactly
>> the same for both certs.
>>
>> AIUI, for DKG's attack to work, it is necessary for:
>>   - the "two" bogus certificates to _not_ be revoked.
>>   - one of the doppelganger intermediates to be logged and revoked.
>>   - the other one (or more) of the doppelganger intermediates to be neither
>> logged nor revoked.
>>
>> I think that there are two possible ways to thwart this attack:
>>
>>   1. Redefine SCTs so that they become SCCTs (Signed Certificate Chain
>> Timestamps) - i.e. the signature is calculated over the entire chain
>> submitted.  I think this is unworkable, because there are too many cases
>> where different chains are legitimate and even expected.
>>
>>   2. Declare that this is not a problem with CT.  It's a problem with using
>> CRL and/or OCSP to revoke intermediates.  So we (where "we" may or may not
>> be TRANS) need to fix revocation!
>> Revoking an intermediate _certificate_ just isn't sufficient.
>> To be effective, the intermediate _public key_ needs to be revoked somehow.
>
> 3. Always revoke bad certs that appear in logs!

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