There's an Ask Slashdot post about this topic today: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/26/1739234&tid=187
WMM On 8/29/05, Shane O'Donnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8/29/05, Mark Freeze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have found that traditional (read clueless) HR departments will look > > over a person with 2 or 3 years experience and no degree and hire a > > college grad with no experience. I don't know why this happens other > > than it could be that most upper level, non-technical, HR & management > > types are looking for some validation that they can relate to their > > own experiences. Now we all know the reality: Take two people, equally > > intelligent, but with no real work experience. Who would be better > > qualified to work a shift at a computer lab or perform tasks in a live > > network environment -- A person who has taken and passed their RHCE > > exam, or a person who just graduated from college? We know the > > answer, but I'll bet you that 90% of HR departments in the US would > > hire the recent college grad. > > Hmmm...I don't know that you've provided enough information for us all > to make the same decision here. And I don't think that a > high-schooler that spent the summer cramming for an RHCE cert is the > obvious choice over a college grad with no work experience. > > As an industry, especially with the recent proclivity for > outsourcing/offshoring, I believe we're heading for the rapid > "blue-collarizing" of many tech jobs. And I think this is good. When > the car was first introduced, only the guy that invented it or had > similar understanding of its inner workings (likely, a college > edumacated engineer) could work on it. Now, high schoolers can go to > vocational education, get a CERTIFICATION, and be duly qualified to > work on cars. And if they've got the cert, they might make a little > more money than their uncertified counterparts. Certs only mean that > you are familiar and comfortable with the subject matter that they > cover. Trades unions provide similar testing/certification programs > before a tradesman can be hired to do certain types of work. > > If I were hiring for someone to execute a given, limited set of tasks > with relative frequency and nominal variance in the output they should > expect, someone certified in that area would foot the bill just fine. > However, if I wanted to hire someone to do this task today, but to > also feel comfortable operating with a broader set of > responsibilities, perhaps in an area of multiple operating systems, > application support, administration (e.g., record keeping, etc.), and > have the expectation that this person would possibly grow into larger > roles, I would likely consider someone that brought something to the > table beyond a specific certification. > > If we're looking for colleges to provide nothing more than training in > a trade, then they aren't serving their purpose. > Colleges/Universities should be providing a broader educational > foundation, in essence, teaching someone how to think, reason, and > continue their education on their own--drawing from experience, > research, and *gasp* reading to learn more. Additionally, where > colleges must provide some level of "these are the facts required to > operate in this industry/role", they excel in providing a relatively > uniform coverage of topics--something that self-trained or "boot > camp"-trained folks USUALLY lack. > > As an example, most CS undergrad programs teach one or more classes in > data structures. Without a firm understanding of the concepts from a > course like this, folks (and I've worked with several of them) are > doomed to go with what they know, versus what might be a better tool > for the job at hand. This leads to problems in efficiency, > performance, scalability, etc. However, that doesn't mean that the > program won't work with wrong data structures. This then leads us > down a path of what defines the quality of work we expect from > employees, and that's a thread for another day. > > Now don't get me wrong--some of the brightest folks I've ever > hired/worked with do not have degrees. Conversely, some of the > dumbest folks I've ever hired/worked with have had college degrees. > The differences between the "good IT guy" and the "bad IT guy" are > many, but if I had to try to identify the common theme that I've seen, > it has much more to do with someone's ability to grasp ideas at a > conceptual level rather than a simple task-execution level. > Unfortunately, I've not seen many degrees, certifications, employment > tests, etc. that can accurately guage someone's ability to think like > that. Certifications ABSOLUTELY DO NOT guarantee this. College > degrees don't either, but college degrees--given their broader subject > matter and longer duration of the program--usually do a better job of > weeding out those that don't "think well". > > No offense intended to non-degreed folks on the list. Consider this a > little insight into my thought processes should you ever have to > interview with me... > > Degreed and certified (perhaps "certifiable"), > > Shane O. > > > > One of the saddest things I have ever witnessed was a couple of years > > ago when I was running a company in Alabama. We had a temporary > > receptionist and I had to show her how to start and use Excel. All she > > really needed to to was data entry several sheets and then total a > > couple of columns, but, she had no clue how to get started. The sad > > part is that she was working at the temporary service because she had > > just graduated from Auburn with a 4-year degree in MIS and was looking > > for what she called 'a computer job.' > > > > If anyone is looking for a job in a traditional environment, the best > > thing to have, IMHO, is a 4 year degree from an accredited institution > > that everyone recognizes. Many HR departments look down their > > pencil-pushing noses at technical certifications and online degrees. > > > > If you don't have your 4-year degree, a couple of the best programs > > (to me at least) are the ones at East Carolina and Florida State. > > Both of these universities will allow you to complete your undergrad > > in computer science online. All you need is a 2-year AA or AS in > > general studies from your local college and you can do the other two > > years at home while you watch reruns of Friends. Plus, when you get > > your degree, its the same degree as someone who had been at the > > college campus for 4 years. Your degree doesn't say 'Florida State > > Online Campus.' Also, I know Auburn University used to have a > > Technical and Engineering MBA program (TEMBA) that they offer online. > > There may be other online undergrad programs at conventional > > universities, but these are the only two that I am familiar with. > > > > http://options.ecu.edu > > http://online.fsu.edu (Even with an AA or AS make sure you meet the > > foreign language requirement on the admission forms.) > > > > "Boy, you need to get a good edumacation. Just like your dad." --Homer > Simpson > > > > Best of luck, > > Mark. > > -- > > TriLUG mailing list : http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug > > TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ > > TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ > > TriLUG PGP Keyring : http://trilug.org/~chrish/trilug.asc > > > > > -- > Shane O. > ======== > Shane O'Donnell > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ==================== > -- > TriLUG mailing list : http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug > TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ > TriLUG Member Services FAQ : http://members.trilug.org/services_faq/ > TriLUG PGP Keyring : http://trilug.org/~chrish/trilug.asc > -- http://warrenmyers.com "God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers." --Paul Erdős
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