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Correction: "know" in the last sentence should be "now".
On 16 August 2014 12:42, Jesus Garcia <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Pete. > Understood. Words are symbols that represent something and they are not > the thing itself. Still we need to agree on the meaning of those symbols if > we are to understand each other. > > To answer your question first, yes, it makes it clearer why you want to > change the label of the package and no, I do not agree that the change > would be helpful. > > I understand that your decision stems from the cognition you had doing > level 5. Nothing to say about your cognition. > It is the conclusion that that cognition applies to everyone what makes me > a bit uneasy. Dennis has done a great deal of work to get to the point of > producing TROM and any correction should be done in a separate work. I > have no way of knowing if your corrections are correct other than > evaluating them using the knowledge and experience I have so I prefer to > listen to both and make up my own mind. > In this case, if I am not mistaken in some way -which has been known to > happen- I see that you take the goal "to be known" stemming from the > cognition "I create effects so others will notice I am here" and propose to > substitute the following, from the THEORY section: > "1. The purpose of bringing an effect into existence is to make it known" > I personally can think readily of a few purposes for "bringing an effect > into existence", one of them being "to be known". They are not more or less > important saving for the fact that each one of us attached importance to > that goal at some point; and this is what makes them important to us, > individually. > However, "to make it known", at this point and from my state of awareness, > seems to be the more basic one; so I do not see a reason to change that. It > is workable and it makes sense. > I hope I did not invalidate any cognition while expressing my thoughts as > it was not my intention. > > On a related subject, "to bring into existence", "to make known", "to > create" all seem to be complimentary goals to "to know", "to see", "to > perceive". They make a pair that I see as inseparable, that is, one cannot > exist without the other. > Together with the negatives "make not known" and "not know" I see games. > I see that when we introduce force, must, importance, win-lose, conviction > etc., it means introducing charge, energy. > I believe I am not saying anything new when I say that once the emotional > charge is off the goal, everything looks much better. When the being has > the choice to play or not any game, the problems disappear. It does not > matter how degrading the game seems, as long as you play it WILLINGLY and > CONSCIOUSLY, that is FREELY; and for me, know, this means free of emotional > charge, of energy blockage and opposing goals. > > Have a nice day > > Jesus > > > > > On 15 August 2014 15:31, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Send Trom mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Trom digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Feedback on "Mus be Known" (Pete Mclaughlin) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 06:34:43 -0700 >> From: Pete Mclaughlin <[email protected]> >> To: The Resolution of Mind list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Feedback on "Mus be Known" >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Jesus >> The words used to describe the postulates are not the postulates. The >> words are only labels that we use so we can communicate about the >> postulates. >> >> In reading over your statements I see that you are saying the to be known >> and to know postulates are all about creating stuff as in inanimate objects. >> You end with a confusion on whether to know is actually the creative >> postulate. >> >> >> Dennis did spend a lot of time talking about creating effects in the TROM >> manual and this is misleading. >> >> The cognition I had that started my effort to change the label for the >> basic goals package to "to be known" was that creating effects is only >> being done so that I can get others to know that I am here. >> >> This is the most important thing to learn from the level 5 of TROM. I >> CREATE EFFECTS SO OTHERS WILL NOTICE I AM HERE. >> >> I want to be known and I want others to know me. >> >> Creating stuff doesn't matter except as it serves this purpose. >> >> >> So "to be known" means I want to be known by others. This is the most >> important goal and why it is the purpose behind all the other goals a >> person has. >> >> >> Does this make it clear why I want to change the label for the basic >> goals package to "to be known" and do you now agree the change would be >> helpful? >> >> Sincerely >> Pete >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Aug 14, 2014, at 1:33 AM, Jesus Garcia <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > ************* >> > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] >> > ************ >> > Hello Peter. >> > >> > I am answering your call to give feedback on the clearing up of the >> concept "To Be Known". >> > >> > I believe It is of the utmost importance to understand the goal package >> "To know"; it is not coincidence that it is the core of TROM. This >> understanding is also the end result of the practice of TROM. I also found >> it difficult to understand; steep gradient indeed. >> > >> > >> > >> > I will try to explain why I think your addition to the book is >> unnecessary and also resolve the misunderstanding, at least to the point >> that I found allowed me to work with TROM and get results. I will try to do >> this within the confines of the TROM manual. If this is of any use to you >> or any other TROM colleague, I will be quite content. >> > >> > >> > >> > You have written the following heading: What is "Must be known?" and >> then go and define the "to be known " postulate. I have not been able to >> find the "to be known" postulate in the manual, so at this moment I am not >> going to work with this specific set of words, as I would like to keep to >> the manual as strictly as I can. >> > >> > >> > >> > From the first addendum of the manual: >> > >> > >> > >> > - "BE KNOWN >> > >> > This is the creative postulate; the postulate that brings the effect >> into existence. His PD postulate that goes with it at the other end of the >> communication line is ?know?. This twin postulate structure is still >> present even if the effect is only being created for the benefit of the >> creator; in this case he merely responds to his own PD postulate and knows >> his own creation." >> > >> > From the section "Theory": >> > >> > >> > >> > - "Life is a spiritual quality. It has four basic abilities: >> > >> > 1. It can bring things into existence." >> > >> > >> > >> > - "1. The purpose of bringing an effect into existence is to make it >> known." >> > >> > >> > >> > " The four basic actions of life each have a twin postulate structure: >> > >> > 1. The postulate bringing the effect into existence, and the postulate >> that it shall be known. >> > >> > 3. The postulate to know the effect and the postulate that it shall be >> made known." >> > >> > >> > >> > From the second addendum: >> > >> > >> > >> > - "Purpose, Intention, Goal and Postulate can be regarded as synonyms. >> A game is a contest in conviction." >> > >> > >> > >> > Ok then! >> > >> > What I understand here is that "BE KNOWN" is the creative postulate, >> the postulate that brings the effect into existence, same as "TO MAKE IT >> KNOWN". I have used "TO CREATE" in level 4 and run very well with it. >> > >> > I believe "BE KNOWN" here has a specialized definition whereas "shall >> be known" in the twin postulate structure above is the Passive Form of the >> Simple Future of the verb to know. >> > >> > I would like to keep it simple so I will not engage in further >> explanations. See if it makes sense. >> > >> > >> > >> > From the section "THEORY": >> > >> > >> > >> > - " All games contain conviction. Conviction, by definition, is an >> enforcement of knowingness. Enforcement of knowingness is called >> importance. Importance is the basis of all significance. Essentially, >> importance is a "must". >> > >> > In games of play our four basic abilities become: >> > >> > SD: Must be known PD: Must Know" >> > >> > >> > >> > So we have games, we have conviction, enforcement, importance and MUST. >> Then "Must be known" is here as the specialized definition, meaning "must >> make known" and "must bring into existence". It fits all right, as the >> twin-complementary postulate is "Must know". >> > >> > Again, see if it makes sense; this is just a theory. >> > >> > This is all I have to say at this point of the definition of "must be >> known". >> > >> > >> > >> > I would like now to get into the "To know" package. >> > >> > From first addendum: >> > >> > >> > >> > - " KNOW >> > >> > This is the postulate that permits the being to know the effect. His >> matching PD postulate at the other end of the comm line is ?Be Known? - so >> the effect is there for him to know. >> > >> > Cause is the action of bringing an effect into existence, taking an >> effect out of existence, knowing, or not-knowing. That which is brought >> into existence, taken out of existence, known, or not-known is called an >> effect. >> > >> > When two or more beings adopt complementary postulates regarding a >> creation they share that creation, which is now a co-creation. They are >> said to be in agreement regarding that creation. Thus, agreement is a >> shared creation. >> > >> > Beings, by means of their willingness to create complementary >> postulates (affinity) and by actually creating complementary postulates >> (communication), achieve co-creation (reality). Thus understanding is >> achieved between beings." >> > >> > Here again, in the first paragraph, ?be known? is a specialized >> definition. "KNOW" is the perception of the effect made known at the other >> end of the comm line. It is the duplication, the acknowledgment of having >> seen the creation (effect). >> > >> > See above " The four basic actions of life each have a twin postulate >> structure:" >> > >> > >> > >> > Of the four it is only the first and the third ones which bring into >> existence communication. In the first the action of bringing an effect into >> existence (with its postulate) and the action of knowing the effect (with >> its postulate), both of them self-determined, are absolutely necessary to >> have communication, therefore reality; in other words, co-creation. >> > >> > >> > >> > In the third we take the point of view of the PD postulate(although the >> actions are the same) and if we take notice of the tense of the verbs we >> could understand that first there is the postulate "to know" and then the >> postulate that it shall be "made known". >> > >> > >> > >> > May be we believe creation is the first action, prior to anything and >> of course, prior to the perception of that being created. But what if "TO >> KNOW" were the postulate of creation? >> > >> > >> > >> > There is an intriguing sentence in the second addendum: >> > >> > "The main list of life goals, headed by ?To Know? and continuing with >> ?To Create? etc., form a scale of increasing condensation, or solidity." >> > >> > >> > >> > It may very well be that our confusion with the "TO KNOW" package means >> we still have some more work ahead of us. >> > >> > >> > >> > In the second addendum Dennis says: >> > >> > " Knowing >> > >> > If one were to inquire into the nature of the quality or ability that >> is closest to life itself one would eventually arrive at the subject of >> knowing. Life can know. All else is the subject of methods or systems of >> knowing. >> > >> > The basic law, or agreement, of this universe is that one will only >> know that which is brought into existence to be known. Thus, this universe >> sets a limitation upon knowing as only being possible for the class of >> things which are brought into existence to be known. >> > >> > This law is peculiar to this universe. A being can only operate, i.e. >> play games within this universe while in agreement with this law. Once he >> starts to know outside of this law he is operating outside the universe. >> > >> > The action of bringing something into existence so that it can be known >> is called creation. Thus, in this universe knowing is limited to those >> things which have been created in the universe. >> > >> > It should never be considered that knowing is by nature limited to >> those things which are created to be known. Life can know; it can know >> anything, whether it has been brought into existence to be known or not. In >> order to operate in this universe life considers, or agrees, that it will >> not-know until something is brought into existence to be known. >> > >> > >> > >> > This limitation upon knowing is the basic law, and the only basic law, >> that governs this universe. Other universes can be constructed upon other >> basic laws, but they would all be some type of limitation of knowing, for >> while knowing is unlimited any type of universe or game is impossible. Bear >> the basic law of this universe in mind as you do the Practical Exercises, >> for all the games you have ever become trapped in in this universe have >> been based upon the basic law of the universe. " >> > >> > >> > >> > It seems to say that "TO KNOW" is senior and more basic than "TO BRING >> INTO EXISTENCE". >> > >> > >> > >> > Definitely all seems to come down to knowing and creating. >> > >> > >> > >> > Have a nice day >> > >> > >> > >> > Jesus Garcia >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Trom mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.newciv.org/pipermail/trom/attachments/20140815/fb05efa8/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trom mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >> >> >> End of Trom Digest, Vol 121, Issue 20 >> ************************************* >> > >
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