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The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
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Hi Marcus,
Re. Part 1 of your inquiry:
Let's take a look at the command first.
It's quite straight forward:
"Get the idea of being (forced to know)"
(E.g. for the 1st class of the eight classes of overwhelm)
The general key-word in that command is the word "idea".
It specifies the flavor of process we're dealing with.
In order to understand that, please see definition below:
[CONCEPT RUNNING, the preclear “gets the idea” of knowing or not being and
holds it, the while looking at his time track. The concept runs out, or the
somatic it brings on runs out, and the concept itself is run. It is not
addressed at individual incidents but at hundreds. (Scn 8-80, p. 29)]
Now, what is an idea?
This can be described in terms of what it isn't or in terms of
its opposite. E.g.
OBJECTIVE, dictionary definition "of or having to do with a material object
as distinguished from *a mental concept, idea or belief*."
So an idea can be best considered as "a mental concept" for our purposes.
Your analysis of "know" into the two distinct meanings is quite right.
But in my view it is easier to think about it in terms of postulates at L4.
Namely opposing postulates. (In this case your's would be MNK
while your opponent's is MBK. Which are opposing or conflicting
each other).
The explanatory text in the L4 section of the TROM material talks
about "punch the concept into your mind" or "now punch out the "forced
to know" [note: this is equivalent to: "Must Be Known" (= MBK) postulate]
That leads immediately to the answer of your 2nd part of the question:
2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4,
meaning
what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and what
visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new material
showed up.
The mental process, as far as I do it, does not contain any visualizations,
thinkingness in terms of phrases or symbols. There are no pictures involved
nor emotions or feelings. Its simply putting up the mental concept
of the overwhelm situation. It could be described as the generic idea,
essence or abstraction of a myriad of exemplary events.
This mental activity will cause the show-up of feelings like guilt, blame,
shame, regret or even whole scenes. Time break as necessary.
Then repair your demand for havingness by your favorite method.
I hope this shed some light on the issue.
Success
Robin
P.S.:
Re. "Physic First Aid" - GUILT
"Guilt is anger that you feel you have no right to have." That's an
interesting definition.
I thought guilt was being caught at doing something wrong.
What do you think?
Good definition indeed because it covers a wide range.
The second definition is applicable for many cases but does not
take into account that one can feel guilt even when having done
something wrong and does not get caught. That latter case may even
be more destructive to the person because it can leave him with a MWH.
In many cases the person rather prefers to confess (make known) at
his/her own volition.
Robin
-----
On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 06:00:02 +0100, <trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Help L4 ! (The Resolution of Mind list)
2. Re: Help L4 ! (The Resolution of Mind list)
3. Re: Help L4 ! (The Resolution of Mind list)
4. Psychic First Aid - Guilt (The Resolution of Mind list)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 18:20:01 -0200
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: trom@lists.newciv.org
Subject: [TROM1] Help L4 !
Message-ID: <mailman.7781.1486584914.1247.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello Trommers
I've been trying L4 drills intermitently for six months with little
success
and finally I think it's time to ask for some help. What happened after a
while of trying is that I acquired some frustration with the vague
meaning
of the 'know' verb and I now keep flipping my mind around this puzzle
during the process.
I ask whoever has achieved success in level 4 to answer these two items.
1) On the 'To Know" definition in Level 4
It seems the verb 'know' has two categories of meanings for trom (A and
B).
Do you hold in mind which of these definitions? Or do these meanings
merge
being basically the same in essence? Please explain how.
*A)* To perceive / experience / acquire data / duplicate / etc
*B)* To believe, or hold a conviction beyond need of proof in your mind
Plus, every overwhelm seems to inherently contain the overwhelm
Infliction (*which
is what causes a conviction* - *meaning B*) for the loser:
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) known
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) not known
I Must know that I must know X effect
I Must know that I must not know X effect
2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4,
meaning
what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and what
visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new material
showed up. Also, is the Be, Do, Have version from Paul a last resort or a
smaller and easier gradient?
Marcus
p.s. I was researching this subject in the old archives yesterday and
coincidentally found Paul tipon's (whom I wasnt aware of until then)
explanations on this level, which are the most detailed in the recordings
of this list. Coincidentally he resurged later that same day on this list
after many years of absence! Kind of weird huh?
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 18:52:52 -0500
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Help L4 !
Message-ID: <mailman.7818.1486600508.1247.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Marcus,
I have a similar problem as you do.
I know how to run that in co audit form.
If you want to co audit TROM L4 on skype,
email me: diogenes...@yahoo.ca
Solo auditing on difficult cases can be like trying to pull your car out
of
the swamp by yourself with a rope.
It is easier with a tow truck.
David
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:20 PM, The Resolution of Mind list <
trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Hello Trommers
I've been trying L4 drills intermitently for six months with little
success and finally I think it's time to ask for some help. What
happened
after a while of trying is that I acquired some frustration with the
vague
meaning of the 'know' verb and I now keep flipping my mind around this
puzzle during the process.
I ask whoever has achieved success in level 4 to answer these two items.
1) On the 'To Know" definition in Level 4
It seems the verb 'know' has two categories of meanings for trom (A and
B). Do you hold in mind which of these definitions? Or do these meanings
merge being basically the same in essence? Please explain how.
*A)* To perceive / experience / acquire data / duplicate / etc
*B)* To believe, or hold a conviction beyond need of proof in your mind
Plus, every overwhelm seems to inherently contain the overwhelm
Infliction
(*which is what causes a conviction* - *meaning B*) for the loser:
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) known
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) not known
I Must know that I must know X effect
I Must know that I must not know X effect
2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4,
meaning what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and
what
visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new material
showed up. Also, is the Be, Do, Have version from Paul a last resort or
a
smaller and easier gradient?
Marcus
p.s. I was researching this subject in the old archives yesterday and
coincidentally found Paul tipon's (whom I wasnt aware of until then)
explanations on this level, which are the most detailed in the
recordings
of this list. Coincidentally he resurged later that same day on this
list
after many years of absence! Kind of weird huh?
_______________________________________________
TROM mailing list
TROM@lists.newciv.org
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:02:51 -0800
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: trom@lists.newciv.org
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Help L4 !
Message-ID: <mailman.7819.1486601942.1247.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Marcus
I also struggled to understand the "to be known" postulate package.
For me the problem was that "to be known" is every way an individual
try's to make his presence known to others in this universe. That was
just to broad to get a handle on to start with.
A comedian will try to make you laugh, a politician will try to make you
listen and a soldier will try to make you obey or die.
All of these are to be known's.
I finally got it when i changed the postulates from "to be known" like
this:
1. Must be known
2. Must not be known
3. Must know
4. Must not know
To "forcing to be known" and "taking from another" like this:
1. Force on another what they are unwilling to have
2. Deprive another of what they want
3. Take from another what they are unwilling to give
4. Refuse to take what another is trying to force on me.
As i used this form to get results from level 4 and 5 i began to see how
it all was an effort to communicate with others or "to be known to
others" and "to know others."
This wording helped me to get the meaning of "to be known" and "to know"
for this postulate failure cycle.
Does that help?
Sincerely
Pete McLaughlin
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 8, 2017, at 12:20 PM, The Resolution of Mind list
<trom@lists.newciv.org> wrote:
*************
The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org
************
Hello Trommers
I've been trying L4 drills intermitently for six months with little
success and finally I think it's time to ask for some help. What
happened after a while of trying is that I acquired some frustration
with the vague meaning of the 'know' verb and I now keep flipping my
mind around this puzzle during the process.
I ask whoever has achieved success in level 4 to answer these two items.
1) On the 'To Know" definition in Level 4
It seems the verb 'know' has two categories of meanings for trom (A and
B). Do you hold in mind which of these definitions? Or do these
meanings merge being basically the same in essence? Please explain how.
A) To perceive / experience / acquire data / duplicate / etc
B) To believe, or hold a conviction beyond need of proof in your mind
Plus, every overwhelm seems to inherently contain the overwhelm
Infliction (which is what causes a conviction - meaning B) for the
loser:
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) known
I Must know that I must be (make X effect) not known
I Must know that I must know X effect
I Must know that I must not know X effect
2) Could you describe how was your mental process of doing level 4,
meaning what words (commands, synonimous of know, etc) did you use and
what visualizations or steps did you go through mentally until new
material showed up. Also, is the Be, Do, Have version from Paul a last
resort or a smaller and easier gradient?
Marcus
p.s. I was researching this subject in the old archives yesterday and
coincidentally found Paul tipon's (whom I wasnt aware of until then)
explanations on this level, which are the most detailed in the
recordings of this list. Coincidentally he resurged later that same day
on this list after many years of absence! Kind of weird huh?
_______________________________________________
TROM mailing list
TROM@lists.newciv.org
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 21:04:56 -0800
From: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
To: TROM <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: [TROM1] Psychic First Aid - Guilt
Message-ID: <mailman.7860.1486616402.1247.t...@lists.newciv.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"Guilt is anger that you feel you have no right to have." That's an
interesting definition.
I thought guilt was being caught at doing something wrong.
What do you think?
As always the full book Psychic First Aid by Muriel Chen is available in
PDF and Kindle versions at www.tromhelp.com/books
Keep on TROMing
Pete McLaughlin
GUILT
Guilt is anger that you feel you have no right to have.
Guilt is of no benefit to anyone.
Steps: Find the guilt.
1. Write down, in detail, the experience about which you feel the guilt.
Don't try to write in any particular way. Write it as it is, as it was,
and how you feel about it. Be honest. As best you can, be the person you
were at the time you felt the guilt.
2. Find the anger under the guilt.
Ask, 3. "Who am I angry with?"
4. Feel the anger; really feel it.
5. Create all the anger that you did not feel at the time. Feel it. You
may, at first, feel anger as grief or frustration or annoyance or any
other feeling. If you do feel any other feeling feel it and keep feeling
it, consciously, until you can feel the anger beneath it.
6. Feel the anger
7. Say all the things that go with those feelings especially those
things that you did not say at the time. Say it aloud if you can.
8. Imagine any other person who was involved answering you just as you
would wish them to do so.
9. Forgive everyone involved. You may find so much anger that you will
need to handle it as in "unwanted emotion".
Sent from my iPad
------------------------------
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End of TROM Digest, Vol 148, Issue 7
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