� David Miller wrote:
> DaveH: > > That is what Glenn wants you to think about > > the BofM.� However, he taking a few passages > > and then spinning them to make it sound like the > > BofM "denys the validity of the Bible".� Quite the > > contrary. > > Dave, I think the Book of Mormon speaks deceptively about the Bible. DAVEH:� You can think what you want, but IMO the BofM does not denigrate the Bible. > If the > book of Mormon came right out and denied the Bible, it would never have been > accepted in its day.� There probably would be no Mormonism today. > > However, by showing alliance with the Bible, but then within it, after > people have begun to accept it, then it teaches the inadequacies of the > Bible to stand by itself, then it creates that deception whereby people are > led to believe as you do that the Bible is an arbitrary collection of books, DAVEH:� LDS theology, nor the BofM teach that.� I came to that conclusion from the way the Bible has been treated by Christians in the past.� It has changed with time, and it happened before JS's time.� To me it seems somewhat arbitrary, depending on how people perceive what the Lord wants them to believe.� Even today, the RCC recognizes the Apocrypha, while most Protestants don't.� If that isn't an arbitrary decision, how do you see it? > created by men DAVEH:� It was revealed to men (prophets) by the Lord.� Since then, it has been in the hands of men as it has been translated and transcribed.� Seems to me that you would agree with me so far, or do you dispute that? > with many mistakes in translation and transmission. DAVEH:� I have pointed out a few translation errors that you didn't dispute, so it seems obvious that errors of translation have occurred.� I'm certainly no scholar, but I'd bet that you know of transmission errors that have occurred as well, though they may not seem particularly severe to you.� Am I wrong in this? > DaveH wrote: > > The BofM quotes much material from Bible sources. > > It states on its title page that it is a second witness of > > Christ, the Bible being the first witness. > > How do you explain that the original title page of the 1830 edition that > Joseph Smith first published did not have anything indicating that it was a > "second witness" of Christ? DAVEH:� Those were my words paraphrasing what I understand the title page to say.� To quote it........ "......and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations." .......To me, the Bible is the first witness to convince the Jews and Gentiles of Christ's divinity, and the BofM is the second witness to such. > �Furthermore, the original title page says that > Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor of the work. DAVEH:� That is correct, the 1830 edition states such.� It is somewhat like the OT starts with....... "The First Book of Moses --- called --- GENESIS ........It was revealed by the Lord, but Moses (or JS in this instance) saw to it that it was recorded for others to read. > DaveH wrote: > > Nephi devotes > > an entire chapter to explaining that the Lord has revealed > > his will to people other than the Jews.� I'll quote it....... > ********* > > 2 Nephi 29 > [1] But behold, there shall be many -- at that day when I shall proceed to > do a marvelous work among them, that I may > remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may > set my hand again the second time to > recover my people, which are of the house of Israel; > [2] And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, > Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would > remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out > of my mouth unto your seed; and my words > shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, > which are of the house of Israel; > [3] And because my words shall hiss forth -- many of the Gentiles shall say: > A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there > cannot be any more Bible. > [4] But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it > shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient > covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they > receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? > Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, > and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth > salvation unto the Gentiles? > [5] O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant > people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have > hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return > all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord > have not forgotten my people. > [6] Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no > more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by > the Jews? > [7] Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, > the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I > remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the > heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring > forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of > the earth? > [8] Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know > ye not that the testimony of two nations is a > witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto > another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one > nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the > testimony of the two nations shall run together also. > [9] And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, > today, and forever; and that I speak forth my > words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one > word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak > another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end > of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. > [10] Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it > contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that > I have not caused more to be written. > [11] For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the > north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, > that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the > books which shall be written I will judge the world, every > man according to their works, according to that which is written. > [12] For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I > shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall > write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of > Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I > shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it. > [13] And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the > Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of > the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost > tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have > the words of the Nephites and the Jews. > [14] And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of > Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their > possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto > them that fight against my word and against my > people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted > with Abraham that I would remember his seed > forever. > ********* > > I find it very difficult to understand how anyone reading the above passage > accepts that it was written around 550 B.C.� To believe such a notion, a > person absolutely must believe that the Book of Mormon had much greater > prophets than those who wrote the Bible. DAVEH:� I don't know why you would say that.� The Bible prophets like Moses, Abraham & Isaiah were no slouches!� <VBG> > �Nowhere do we find this kind of > insight into the 19th century mindset, DAVEH:� I would disagree.� IMO, Isaiah was such a prophet.....but perhaps you would disagree. > unless, of course, we accept the idea > that it was not authored in 550 B.C., but rather in the early 19th century. > > Dave, unlike Blaine, DAVEH:� I don't recall Blaine ever suggesting the BofM prophets were superior to Bible prophets.� If you specifically remember a comment from his to that effect, I'd sure like to read it to get the context. > you tend to place the Book of Mormon prophets at a > similar level to the Biblical prophets.� Surely you must see the problem > with doing that. DAVEH:� No, I don't see the problem.� If the Lord reveals himself to a prophet, whether minor or major.....he is still a prophet.� The Bible and the BofM both have their share of major & minor prophets.� To me there is nothing to differentiate the prophets of the Bible to the BofM. > �Where in the Bible do we see such foresight as what you > quote above? DAVEH:� Isaiah. > It seems much more likely that Joseph Smith authored those > words, which would be more concordant with the original title page of the > Book of Mormon, which said, "By Joseph Smith, Junior, Author and > Proprietor." DAVEH:� JS is the prophet the Lord chose to bring about the BofM.�� On the same title page that you find claim of 'JS's authorship', you will also find an explanation of what the BofM is........ "An account written by the hand of Mormon, upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi" .........and it goes on to explain........ "......sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation thereof by the gift of God;......." ........DavidM, if you feel that JS's claim of authorship on the title page is a problem, I have to disagree with you.� JS obviously gave credit to the original source of the BofM. > Peace be with you. > David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ � ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
