> I think I know where we disagree. It's over
> the word perfect. I cannot see anyone as
> perfect as God the Father in that everyone
> has sinned.
The underlying assumption that you make here is that a person's past has
merit for judging his present position. I think that assumption is false in
light of a gospel that announces how past sins are no longer held against us
because of the cross of Christ. Either we really are new creatures in Jesus
Christ or we are not. We either are born again, or we are simply reformed.
If we were simply reformed, you would have a case, but if we are new
creatures, why consider our past sins at all?
Glenn - Agreed.
Glenn wrote:
> I see the taming down of the word perfect to
> mean less than perfect in order for people
> to qualify to be perfect.
It seems like you are getting at motives here. The thought has never
entered my mind as to how to find a way to be called perfect. Rather, I
simply saw that the Bible used the word perfect in reference to Christians,
and that Jesus instructed us to be perfect. Because I take the Bible
seriously, I felt that I needed to change my language and understanding of
terms to line up with the Bible.
Glenn - Again, which Bible translation? I don't talk in Elizabethan English. I don't think in Elizabethan English. Almost no one does in America. :-)
Glenn wrote:
> I don't see any Christian with perfect character
> as God the Father. I think it is a prideful heart
> to even think one could even compare themseves
> in righteousness to God the Father.
I can understand that if you think people work out their own righteousness,
but when righteousness is imputed to us, and then imparted into us by the
Spirit as a gift of God, without works on our part, then how could their
possibly be pride?
Glenn - If I am right, heed it. If I am wrong, forget it.
Glenn wrote:
> I think to tame down the word perfect to mean
> not committing sin, is to compromise on sin.
> Sin is much deeper and nastier.
> In my mind it is impossible to become more perfect.
> It is impossible to grow if you are perfect.
> Perfect is perfect as God the Father is perfect.
It would be ridiculous for anyone to say that they are as perfect as God the
Father in the sense that you use the word here, as being impossible to grow.
Please understand that we agree on this point. Nevertheless, the Bible does
use the word perfect in a different sense, and so do people today when they
talk about how Jesus was perfect. Are you willing to consider ideas along
these lines? I think in Phil. 2 is a passage that uses the word "perfect"
in both ways and might be a good starting point. Then we can talk about the
way in which Jesus Christ is considered perfect. I almost must hear an
answer to some questions that I have posted, which are:
Was Jesus at the time he said this (Mat. 5:48) as perfect as his heavenly
Father? Was Jesus at age 12 as perfect as his heavenly Father? Has Jesus
always been as perfect as his heavenly Father?
Glenn - I understand you are using the word perfect differently. You make a case for it but it is easily misunderstood by the common man. I have know several people who left the Nazarene Church because they were told they could not teach a Sunday School Class until they became perfect. This Pastor also told them if was not possible for him to sin. He was above sin. He could not sin if he wanted too. I believe you cause would be better served to use the word holy, or righteous. The common man understands that. Well.........come to think of it.........very few in America understand holiness.
Jesus was always, will always be forever as perfect as his Father was Perfect. However, the trap here is Jesus had to grow in the physical body while on this earth. I don't see that as having anything to do with his spiritual perfection. I doubt you claim your physical body is absolutely perfect. But I believe Jesus' physical body was absolutely perfect. At age 12 he sure seemed to be perfect. There was something that happened at the baptism of Jesus.
