Dave wrote:
DAVEH: I'm changing the subject line to reflect the nature of this post.--Carroll Moore wrote:
DAVEH: I hope you don't mind me interjecting at this point, Carroll. I think I should clarify my beliefs regarding salvation.Glenn - My understanding from Mormons here on TT is that Mormons do not believe they are saved. They do not believe in a past or present salvation. Jeff, a Mormon says he are not saved. They only believe in a future salvation.* Yes -I would agree that this is their belief also- I have yet to untangle this from justification by works unto sanctification
As I have stated before, I don't think anybody is ultimately saved until after the resurrection, at which time they enter heaven. Until Christ's resurrection and atoning sacrifice, it was not possible for anybody to reach heaven. So when (2000 years ago) he made it possible for us to return to heaven, in a past sense we WERE then saved from having no hope of salvation.
Had Jesus not been born, lived a perfect life, died and then was resurrected........None of us would be able to reach heaven. That is why it is by his grace we are saved.
So, who is salvation for.....? Those who believe on his name. What does that mean......? Those who truly believe (as opposed to those who know the truth, but fail/refuse to act upon it) are those who love him and keep his commandments.......
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jn 14:15)
.......and one of those commandments is baptism of both water and the spirit. (Jn 3:5) And as I have previously stated, water baptism is a covenant we make with the Lord of our acceptance of his redeeming sacrifice. Without the 'washing our sins' effect of our water baptism into the Lord's kingdom, we effectively have not covenanted to take upon ourselves his name and in return receive a forgiveness of our sins. Therefore, final salvation (entry to heaven) won't take effect until after that happens. That does not detract from his part in our salvation, because without his redeeming grace, salvation wouldn't be possible. But it does allow consideration for our part in the salvation process, viz., faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost. As Blaine suggested, we are saved by by Christ AFTER all we can do. Until we attain that ultimate salvation in our heavenly home, we are content to know that Jesus provided the means of salvation, and walked the path leading us to salvation in heaven, if we will but follow in his footsteps. And to fulfill all righteousness, one of those footsteps led down into the waters of baptism. Our responsibility is to keep his commandments and endure to the end, at which point we will be saved from the Tempter's power by our resurrection into a heavenly state of peace in the presence of the Lord's love.
-so I will study their view-If I turn into a Mormon doing this you and David are going to be my first converts if I have to follow you guys to the edge of the Earth not giving even one minute of rest- I will be in your dreams and worst nightmares-(-:
* Yes I do Gary-But what am I concuring to? If you mean present tense salvation-Yes I do agree-I believe there is a hint of difference between us and Monmonism in that we believe Jesus paid for our sins while dying on the cross for atonement and Mormons seem to believe we have atonment because he arose. I could be wrong just a thought.
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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