Perry, "Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
I agree--we cannot save ourselves by obeying the commandments. They are the result, not the cause, of salvation. But is it possible that those who say they believe, but do not "result in righteousness", are not really saved? (I once had a Christian friend who was married and committing adultery. When I confronted her about it she said, "Well, God will just have to forgive me!") That's "pure grace without works" for you! But if we can judge belief by it's subsequent presence or lack of righteousness, what standard for righteousness do we have, other than the 10 Commandments, or the "Big Two Commandments"? Izzy -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Locke Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 1:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Crucial Doctrines Izzy, What a good question. I look to Romans 10:9-10 to answer the question about salvation: Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. This seems pretty clear as far as slavation is concerned. It does not add "if you do this, and do that, and believe this doctrine, or follow that doctrine". So, my position is that as long as one believes and confesses as Paul indicates in Romans 9-10, one is saved. BTW, I also believe that one does not lose one's salvation. I do believe there are those who say they believe and fall away because they did not truly believe. It may appear as they they lose their salvation...but one can't lose what one never had. Furthermore, it is not up to me to decide who believes and who does not. We can judge people by their actions, but we do not know their hearts. Those who rely on their works for salvation, even a little, most likely are not truly be saved, because they are not putting their full faith in Jesus. Yhey are in essence saying, "Jesus' death on the cross was not enough to save me... I must do my own works to help it along". This is essentiall disbelief. They are relying on themselves, and there truly is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, that we can do to merit salvation. This is the problem with the non-believer who ansers the question about why they think they are going to heaven by stating, "I am a good person and always try to do the right thing". That is admirable from a human standpoint, but according to Paul, that does not provide salvation. Now, works ARE important, in that they are a RESULT of one's true belief, a sign of our understanding of and gratitude for the grace that has been given us. These are the good works for which we have been set apart. However, the works themselves do not add one iota to one's salvation...all of the glory for our salvation goes to the One who saved us through His blood. And this is a free gift, for those who believe. Christ left two actual physical symbols for us, both of which only believers should partake. The first is baptism, and the second is the Lord's Supper. Notice that Paul did not mention that baptism is part of salvation! However, we are baptised out of obedience as a symbol to ourselves and to others of our conversion. Are non-believers sometimes baptised? Sure, when they convince believers that they believe. But they are not saved by that. And, their baptism is a lie they are telling, and they will eventually fall away. How about immersion v. sprinkling? Although all of the baptisms in the Bible were immersions, and I belive that is the best symbol for the changed life, I cannot say that sprinkling is wrong. And, the Lord's supper, as we all agree, is done in rememberance of Jesus and the sacrifice He made. What about doctrinal issues of transubstantiation v. consubstantiation v. symbolism, or wine v. grapejuice? This doesn't matter. What does matter is that you remember Jesus and the sacrifice He made. There are many other doctrinal issues that have been used to separate churches in all Christ-based religions. But I feel that the above issues are the immutable traits of Christians, and those who follow the scripture in those things are part of the "invisible church", as our former TT'r Glenn once said (God rest his eSoul), and that is the one true church that Jesus established. Perry ----Original Message Follows---- From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [TruthTalk] Crucial Doctrines Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 08:26:22 -0600 A general question for all TT'ers: With all of the haggling going on about correct doctrines, I'm wondering how important "correct doctrine" really is to getting into heaven when we die. For instance, will St. Peter be standing at the gate with a multiple-choice questionnaire and if we miss the right answer, say, on "Is the Holy Spirit a person or a force?", a buzzer goes off and the floor opens below us, and we fall into hell? My point is, it seems to me that it is less important where we ARE on the continuum of right and wrong doctrine than it is in what DIRECTION we are going. Are we headed towards God, or away? Are we really seeking Truth, or not? I believe that ALL truth leads to Jesus Christ. What if we don't have all the "right" answers to doctrinal questions? Is that more important to God than how we treat our fellow human beings? Is it more important than whether we tolerate sin in our lives? I know that what we believe is VERY important, because it does determine whether or not we are "Saved". But what are the CRUCIAL DOCTRINES that we must believe to be saved? Somehow I don't think that whether or not we celebrate OT holy days are one of those crucial doctrines for salvation. Isn't it all about who Jesus really is? If you have that right, can other doctrinal "mistakes" keep you out of heaven? Izzy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI =7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advance djmf_3mf ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
