[DavidM:] >I do not agree..that the Judaizers who were adulterating > Paul's gospel were kicked out of the church. What verse > in Galatians says that?
Gary wrote: > let's not overlook that Dr GT has at least alluded > to an important point: acc to Galatians, below, > there were true and 'false brethren' Who's job is it to judge the false brethren from the true brethren? What passage do you look to for supporting your notion that false brethren need to be kicked out of the church? Why do you Christians who continually sin kick out those who teach contrary to your liking? Is it because you don't want to use discipline against those who sin, because then you too might find yourselves thrust out of the church? Or do you simply walk in the same traditions of your religious fathers who persecuted the prophets in their day? Don't forget the email list that I was kicked off of because they kicked you off the list for something you said, and I stood up for your right to say it and suffered their wrath because of it. Now when I continue to stand for this same principle for the sake of someone else, you stand againt me? Why? Do you not remember, or do you simply think yourself more worthy as a "true" brother? Who made you the judge of who is a true brother and who is a false brother? I would really like to know. Gary wrote: > (they were) NOT, however, in the Galatian 'church' > (singular--DavidM's word), but in the Galatian 'churches' > (plural), the Ap. Paul's word for the Galatian Christian > fellowship/s You sure do strain to try and find something in my words whereby you might accuse me. You know full well that I believe that there were many churches in Galatia, but when we talk about someone getting kicked out, as per the comparison with what was said would be done to Marlin, we can only talk about one church at a time. Just show me one church in Galatia where this happened and I will recant my position. Gary wrote: > [ftr, 'church', as DavidM misuses it in reference to the NT, > above, underlies/defines (contrary to the NT) his idea of the > inclusive ecumenicity of TT 'fellowship' (which has nothin to > do with the tha Ap Paul's concept) and ftr, he is forcing this > TT model on the NT Not at all, Gary. The concept of love and accceptance is a New Testament one. The enemy of love and unity is sin. Therefore, those who sin ought to be rebuked, and if they do not repent, treated as a sinner and fellowship with them broken. This is because of sin, not erroneous teaching. Erroneous teaching is combated with truthful teaching. If you see anything in all the Holy Scriptures that is not according to this pattern, please show it to me and I will rescind my position. With regard to TruthTalk, we are a discussion list, so how can we possibly deal with sin as it would be dealt with in the church? We really can't. I'm sure we have many sinners on TruthTalk, even as you yourself proclaim that you are. There are surely others too, as one of our Mormons professes himself also to sin against Christ. So in my perspective, my knowledge of the New Testament concerning love and forbearance is forced upon TruthTalk, not the other way around. Gary wrote: > to refine the thought, DavidMs idea of TT is ecumenical > religious democracy--nothin wrong with that I don't think so, Gary. When was the last time we voted here? Gary wrote: > i'm not opposed to it, to wide 'ecumenical' discussion/s, but > PLEASE do not confuse that ecumenical'dialog' model with > NT/Pauline Christian 'fellowship/s'] I agree. TruthTalk and churches are different things. Gary wrote: > (back to the issue) so does anyone want to dialog on the > VALID biblical point, above, or, from another angle, who > on TT wants to argue (against the NT) that the Ap. Paul > made 'false brothers' (like Marlin, acc to Dr GT) feel > welcome in the Galatian churches? Let's get the question of debate right. I never said that the Judaizers were made to feel welcome. Quite the contrary. Their teachings were constantly rebuked and debated. I doubt that they felt very welcome at all. Nevertheless, Paul never instructed the churches to cast out those Judaizers who taught such. Paul took care of the problem by teaching, and when that did not work well enough, he went to the Jerusalem church from which these Judaizers came and had a council held there for the church to give its judgment about what these men who came from there were teaching in other churches. Gary wrote: > Galatians teaches that "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, > lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, > wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, > revellings, and such like..they which do such things shall not inherit > the kingdom of God." The word "heresies" above is not like our modern use of the word, which would be an unorthodox religious opinion. Rather, the Greek word here signifies a sect, a party or a disunion. In other words, it is more applicable to those who kick out those with unorthodox religious opinions. It would be more applicable to a pastor who cuts off someone who honors the Sabbath day, or who leaves a church and takes those who believe more like him to start another church. This is what "hairesis" means, the Greek word translated "heresies" in the above passage. I looked through the list of sins above, and I still do not find unorthodox religious opinion, or even false teaching, to be listed there. Sins such as adultery, fornication, idolatry, witchcraft, etc. are all easily dealt with. Who is able to decide what is false teaching worthy of death? Rather, the Scriptures say: "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1Co 11:19) What I don't understand is how you can quote a passage like the one you just did, and yet still argue that Christians should expect to continue to commit these sins. Then on top of that, you argue for kicking out of the church those who light Shabbat candles and honor the Sabbath. Lord save us from this kind of legalism. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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