Peter: You do not need to know the answer to that question at bthis time. All you need to know now is that god put that human life there with the intent that it become a human person, and you have no right to mess with God's plan. Some day HE will explain it all, face to face. Terry
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Eyland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Stand for the Unborn! G'day Guys, I have asked the question when does human life become a human person? The Bible links a person's life with a breath from God, e.g. Genesis 6:17 �I bring the flood S to destroy all flesh, in which is the breath of life S everything that is in the earth shall die�. Genesis 7:15 �They went in to Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life�. Genesis 7:22 �All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died�. Job 12:10 �In whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.� Job 27:3 �For my life is yet whole in me and the breath of God is in my nostrils�. Job 33:4 �The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life�. Ps 146:4 �His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth. In that day his thoughts perish�. Ecclesiastes 3:19 �For what happens to men happens to animals S as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath. Ezekiel 37:5-10 �Lord Yahveh says to these bones: Look, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live S and I looked, and there were sinews upon them, and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in the S So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.� John 6:63 �It is the breath that gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are breath and life�. Acts 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life, and breath, and all things; Romans 8:11 �But if the breath of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his breath that dwells in you�. Revelation 11:11 �The breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet�. I take it from this a when you are born and begin to breath then you are a person before God. Concerning references about what happens before birth: Psalm 139 reads: (13) �For you formed my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb. (14) S You know me right well (15) my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. (16) Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written all of the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them�. The defining part of the passage is the last phrase. The �me� referred to in the passage has �no days�. You will no doubt ponder on this. What I feel it expresses is that just as Adam was in God�s mind before his creation (when he too had �no days�), so also the Psalmist recognises that God had him in mind before he was born but acknowledges that he didn�t have any existence as a person (i.e. �days�) before his birth. Genesis 25:23 has something similar when Rebekah (who is pregnant with Jacob and Esau) is told �two nations are in your womb�. The nations obviously didn�t exist at that time, but they did in the mind of God. Also, in Romans 9:11 Paul says, of Jacob and Esau, that in the womb they �had not done anything� either good or bad, and this means they were not yet able to act as a human person. Jeremiah 1:5 �Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you went out [of the womb] I consecrated you�. In this passage Yahveh says that Jeremiah was consecrated before leaving the womb. However Jeremiah doesn�t see it that way because he, as a person, has no memory of it and so pleads youth and inexperience. Yahveh then actually consecrates him right there, by touching his lips. Thus, Jeremiah was assured that he was part of God�s plan before he was born. Now, having been consecrated as a living breathing person, he can carry out the tasks that God planned. Being foreseen in God�s future plan is not the same as being a living breathing person and it does not detract from all that God has been working on for nine months or the previous millennia. In Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 only those who names were written in the book of life �from the foundation of the world� can enter the new life God has promised. They were in God�s plan before they become living people. Similarly, in Ephesians 1:4 and 2:10 people were chosen �before the foundation of the world� and later created to do the good works he planned for them before they become living people. The Mary and Elizabeth narrative is given in the context of the miraculous and I wouldn't use a miraculous event as argument for a general situation. Also a moving foetus does not always translate into a a living berthing person. Job can lament that his human life did not end in the womb without affirming that he was a person then. I say that there is human life within a woman's womb, but it is not a human person because: Scientifically it is neither rational nor self conscious, and Biblically it has not taken that first breath of air that distinguishes it from a still born child. Now just because something is not a fully human person, it does not mean that it should not be treated with respect and this is how medical ethicists approach the matter of abortions - with respect. Because something is not unlawful does not invite open slather. There are other considerations to take into account. Turning to David (Hi Dave!) and your current email. Your discussion on demons would be a good point, if they didn't already have spiritual bodies. In 1 Cor 15 we read that life comes in bodies - some material and some spiritual. Angels also have spiritual bodies. Apparently, demons like to haunt peoples' bodies so that they can torment them. What happens when we die? Turning to 1 Cor 15 again "the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised" at that time. Now 1 Thess 4:13 - 18 says that those who are alive at the last trumpet will not have a head-start on the dead. That is they will not "get to heaven" first. The dead will rise first and those who are alive will join them and so everyone gets there at the same time. The reference to Jonah in Matt 12:40 is interesting because traditionally Jesus did not spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Jesus died Friday arvo (before dark) on day 1, Friday sunset to Saturday sunset was day 2, Saturday night to early Sunday was the "third" day on which he rose. However, Jesus "descended into hell" on the cross as on that very day he was in paradise, so there is no time for his disembodied spirit to wander about as if it was slightly lost. I really don't understand the 1 Peter 3 passage so I won't comment now. The Hebrews passage is the basis of the Eastern churches liturgiology. In Hebrews we see that living Christians are even now "in heaven" in some real sense. Since ecclesia means a "gathering" (active and passive sense), God's gathering is his people continuously having been gathered around Christ. This way there can only ever be one church and Christians are always together in "church". The writer to the Hebrews is aware that his living readers know this so he urges them not to forsake meeting! Eastern churches include the dead in that gathering but I do not see that clearly from the text. The Apocalypse is full of mysterious symbols and bloodthirsty events. I would take their cries as symbolic like Abel's blood. When Paul longs to be with his Lord in 2 Cor, if he follows his own understanding of things, then he knows that there will be no knowledge of a gap in consciousness after he dies. Like Jesus said to the thief "today you will be in Paradise" and "he who believes in me will never see death". Now, is anyone still awake out there, or have you all turned off? David, you wrote: > From your perspective, then, we would not really retain anything from this > life, would we? Why would you call this a resurrection rather than a > recreation? Can you elaborate a little more on this? Returning to 1 Cor 15:50 "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, nor dose the perishable inherit the perishable". Your body has to go, it is incompatible with that future life. Do your present atoms go into heaven? That would be tricky because we all exchange atoms on a regular basis. It is estimated that every breath you take in has one molecule from the dying breath of Jesus. Don't ask about drinking water and Abraham's urine! Which atoms would represent your body when it is not a closed system? Resurrection is a good description and recreation is also mentioned - "Look I make all things new" - "We look for a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwell righteousness" etc. Dave you also wrote: > If our > consciousness is only an emergent property of a completely physical body, > then why have our faith tried here? In your philosophy, it appears that we > would not be able to take anything at all with us and so the trial of our > faith which works godliness and good character in us would be lost the > minute the body died. Do you see my point? Um, no. > You can give me a hundred Scriptures showing that pain and gloom is in the > context when "yatzah" is used, but I only need to point out one verse where > it is not used in that context to show that the word does not carry that > meaning. I don't understand this either. Meaning in language is not a like a scientific "law" to be disproved by one contrary example. Meaning is found from diachronic and synchronic investigation - from context and usage. Cheers Peter -- Peter Eyland Sydney Australia Web page: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~epe ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
