----- Original
Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, 02 April, 2003 12:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, 02 April, 2003 12:20
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Speeding is not sin?
david is in black
slade is
in Torah blue
> > For those of you who think you can speed and not
> > be committing sin, read the following (Romans 13).
>
> I'm not sure if you are directing this toward me or not, but I'm
> responding because I feel that I might not be understood on this
> subject.
I actually directed this toward anyone who wants to ignore the
ordinances set down by the leaders of their nation/state/county/city. If you
speed intentionally, it's directed at you. When I speed intentionally, it's
directed at me. However, lower in your email you profess that you do not speed
-- therefore it does not apply to you.
I generally use "speeding" as a picture of how a simple, innocuous deed is truly sin in the eyes of YAH, even though the law enforcement officers will not pull you over and cite you with a fine until it's excessive. Our God's eyes are ever roaming and every deed and word is subject to answer in the hereafter.
I generally use "speeding" as a picture of how a simple, innocuous deed is truly sin in the eyes of YAH, even though the law enforcement officers will not pull you over and cite you with a fine until it's excessive. Our God's eyes are ever roaming and every deed and word is subject to answer in the hereafter.
> This
speeding subject is a very good one to help us distinguish between
> "the written word / being legalistic" and "the living word / being led
> of the Spirit." I hope you make an effort to grasp what I am teaching
> on this subject.
It seems you are confusing terms. Manmade laws created by governments to rule over their subjects are laws we must do according to Scripture. In two previous emails I gave two passages in the New Testament to prove that point. Manmade rules created by the Religious Intelligencia that are given the same credence as Scripture, on the other hand, are a completely different monster. These rules created by the Pharisaic and the Sadducee Intelligencia that contradicted or hamstrung Scripture are the laws Yeshua fought against. That's why he made the comment, "Shabbat was made for Man," and "These things you should do, but you forgot the weightier things of the Law like Grace and Mercy." He was not referring to the laws of Caesar.
> First, we must understand that most traffic violations are not crimes.
> They are civil infractions. It would be illegal for the authorities to
> punish you with incarceration or other penalties that are used for
> crimes. A fine is the most that can be imposed. Ask yourself why our
> authorities do not consider it a crime. Note that some traffic
> violations are crimes, such as "reckless driving," but simply exceeding
> the speed limit is not a crime, unless it endangers someone when you are
> doing it.
I don't intend to be rude, but so what? It's a matter of semantics. Would you believe if I told you "It was a simple affair... it's not like it was adultery or anything?" I wouldn't buy it either, and I can't buy your argument (similar to the one Chris "dug from his archives that someone submitted to another list about four years ago") for the same reason.
By the way, when you exceed the speed limit someone is harmed... you, because you are allowing sin to enter your life and that is interfering with your communion with the Almighty.
> Second, try to see the relationship between sin and crime. Sin is
> something that damages someone else, either your neighbor or God. For
> example, sins are things like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry,
> taking the Lord's name in vain. Civil crimes are generally those
> actions which damage your neighbor or yourself. In our society, we
> don't have crimes against God much anymore. Therefore, crimes are
> things like stealing and murder. Are you starting to see the overlap
> here?
Civil crime is not the issue here. I am trying to keep the focus on how YHVH sees things. The issue is sin in the eyes of our Almighty God, and again, you are mixing terms and needlessly confusing the issue. If you want to discuss damages and the like, Torah has the best list of Torte Laws on the planet, and every nation should adopt them. It would remove the endless court battles, etc.
However, you are right. This nation does not have crimes against God any longer because it doesn't believe in Him any longer (nor does it believe Him either), and that's too bad. However, our God has said we must obey our nation's laws otherwise we are sinning before YHVH and He will remember our sins come Judgment Day. Wouldn't it be nice to have a short record? Wouldn't it be a bit less embarrassing?
> Third, I believe that the traffic laws need to be followed. They
> maintain order in our society and prevent sin. They prevent damage from
> happening. For example, if someone runs their car into another person's
> car, they have sinned against that person. Stop signs, traffic lights,
> and speed limits help prevent these sins from happening. I do not own a
> radar detector, nor do I exceed the speed limit because nobody is
> getting hurt by it. I accept whatever the rules that the authorities
> have put into place, and I submit myself to these rules.
HalleluYAH! I do my utmost to do the same.
> Fourth, understand that there are exceptions to speeding laws. If you
> were bringing someone to the hospital in an emergency, and a policeman
> pulled you over, he would not write you a speeding ticket. He would
> give you a police escort and help you speed safely to the hospital. The
> fact that such exceptions exist tells you that the laws are not precise
> enough to define true righteousness in every situation. Police exercise
> a certain level of judgment when they enforce traffic rules, because the
> rules are meant to promote safety. The goal of what the rules are meant
> to accomplish is what is in sight, not the idea that the rule must be
> followed at all costs. A legalist might think it immaterial that police
> officers exercise some level of judgment, but I think his mind is in the
> wrong place if that is the case. He is like the Pharisees always
> accusing Jesus and not being able to judge righteous judgment. We ought
> to be able to see the overall good and right in any situation and not be
> dependent upon written rules and regulations. I'm not saying that
> written laws are not needed, but they only serve as a guideline to help
> us find our way, until we are able to make good judgments ourselves
> about right and wrong. Some people in this category may find themselves
> being put in positions of authority to create these laws themselves, as
> part of our legislature.
The concept of "light and heavy" is a common thread throughout Scripture. The Hebrew term for that is Kal V'Khomer (said basically to keep the term in my head). This is the first of seven rules of Biblical hermeneutics outlined by Hillel (who is the grandfather of Gamaliel -- Yes, the one mentioned in the New Testament).
The concept of Kal V'khomer allows one to determine the relative "weight" of one passage versus another. For instance, "If a man receives circumcision on the Shabbat so that the Torah of Moshe should not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a man completely well on the Shabbat?" (John 7:23)
In this text, Messiah reminds us that the Torah for circumcision is weightier than Keeping the Shabbat. He also tells us that making a man completely well is yet greater than the command for circumcision because the term "are you angry with me because" implies "how much greater it is...!" Matthew 12:11-12 is another keen example of this concept.
Therefore, I do not have a problem with exceptions existing in the manmade laws of civil government. Exceptions exist in the Torah of YHVH as well, and I merely pointed out two of many examples in the New Testament alone!
> "the written word / being legalistic" and "the living word / being led
> of the Spirit." I hope you make an effort to grasp what I am teaching
> on this subject.
It seems you are confusing terms. Manmade laws created by governments to rule over their subjects are laws we must do according to Scripture. In two previous emails I gave two passages in the New Testament to prove that point. Manmade rules created by the Religious Intelligencia that are given the same credence as Scripture, on the other hand, are a completely different monster. These rules created by the Pharisaic and the Sadducee Intelligencia that contradicted or hamstrung Scripture are the laws Yeshua fought against. That's why he made the comment, "Shabbat was made for Man," and "These things you should do, but you forgot the weightier things of the Law like Grace and Mercy." He was not referring to the laws of Caesar.
> First, we must understand that most traffic violations are not crimes.
> They are civil infractions. It would be illegal for the authorities to
> punish you with incarceration or other penalties that are used for
> crimes. A fine is the most that can be imposed. Ask yourself why our
> authorities do not consider it a crime. Note that some traffic
> violations are crimes, such as "reckless driving," but simply exceeding
> the speed limit is not a crime, unless it endangers someone when you are
> doing it.
I don't intend to be rude, but so what? It's a matter of semantics. Would you believe if I told you "It was a simple affair... it's not like it was adultery or anything?" I wouldn't buy it either, and I can't buy your argument (similar to the one Chris "dug from his archives that someone submitted to another list about four years ago") for the same reason.
By the way, when you exceed the speed limit someone is harmed... you, because you are allowing sin to enter your life and that is interfering with your communion with the Almighty.
> Second, try to see the relationship between sin and crime. Sin is
> something that damages someone else, either your neighbor or God. For
> example, sins are things like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry,
> taking the Lord's name in vain. Civil crimes are generally those
> actions which damage your neighbor or yourself. In our society, we
> don't have crimes against God much anymore. Therefore, crimes are
> things like stealing and murder. Are you starting to see the overlap
> here?
Civil crime is not the issue here. I am trying to keep the focus on how YHVH sees things. The issue is sin in the eyes of our Almighty God, and again, you are mixing terms and needlessly confusing the issue. If you want to discuss damages and the like, Torah has the best list of Torte Laws on the planet, and every nation should adopt them. It would remove the endless court battles, etc.
However, you are right. This nation does not have crimes against God any longer because it doesn't believe in Him any longer (nor does it believe Him either), and that's too bad. However, our God has said we must obey our nation's laws otherwise we are sinning before YHVH and He will remember our sins come Judgment Day. Wouldn't it be nice to have a short record? Wouldn't it be a bit less embarrassing?
> Third, I believe that the traffic laws need to be followed. They
> maintain order in our society and prevent sin. They prevent damage from
> happening. For example, if someone runs their car into another person's
> car, they have sinned against that person. Stop signs, traffic lights,
> and speed limits help prevent these sins from happening. I do not own a
> radar detector, nor do I exceed the speed limit because nobody is
> getting hurt by it. I accept whatever the rules that the authorities
> have put into place, and I submit myself to these rules.
HalleluYAH! I do my utmost to do the same.
> Fourth, understand that there are exceptions to speeding laws. If you
> were bringing someone to the hospital in an emergency, and a policeman
> pulled you over, he would not write you a speeding ticket. He would
> give you a police escort and help you speed safely to the hospital. The
> fact that such exceptions exist tells you that the laws are not precise
> enough to define true righteousness in every situation. Police exercise
> a certain level of judgment when they enforce traffic rules, because the
> rules are meant to promote safety. The goal of what the rules are meant
> to accomplish is what is in sight, not the idea that the rule must be
> followed at all costs. A legalist might think it immaterial that police
> officers exercise some level of judgment, but I think his mind is in the
> wrong place if that is the case. He is like the Pharisees always
> accusing Jesus and not being able to judge righteous judgment. We ought
> to be able to see the overall good and right in any situation and not be
> dependent upon written rules and regulations. I'm not saying that
> written laws are not needed, but they only serve as a guideline to help
> us find our way, until we are able to make good judgments ourselves
> about right and wrong. Some people in this category may find themselves
> being put in positions of authority to create these laws themselves, as
> part of our legislature.
The concept of "light and heavy" is a common thread throughout Scripture. The Hebrew term for that is Kal V'Khomer (said basically to keep the term in my head). This is the first of seven rules of Biblical hermeneutics outlined by Hillel (who is the grandfather of Gamaliel -- Yes, the one mentioned in the New Testament).
The concept of Kal V'khomer allows one to determine the relative "weight" of one passage versus another. For instance, "If a man receives circumcision on the Shabbat so that the Torah of Moshe should not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a man completely well on the Shabbat?" (John 7:23)
In this text, Messiah reminds us that the Torah for circumcision is weightier than Keeping the Shabbat. He also tells us that making a man completely well is yet greater than the command for circumcision because the term "are you angry with me because" implies "how much greater it is...!" Matthew 12:11-12 is another keen example of this concept.
Therefore, I do not have a problem with exceptions existing in the manmade laws of civil government. Exceptions exist in the Torah of YHVH as well, and I merely pointed out two of many examples in the New Testament alone!
(One exists in Numbers 15 if
you read it closely and pay attention to what is NOT said in the text! ***That's
a test for you, David. Will you take me up on it? Please do. It'll be a
wonderful exercise.***)
> The point that I was trying to make before was that only a legalist
> would call it a sin for someone to slip over the speed limit
> accidentally for a few seconds. Why? Because he is concerned with what
> is written and abiding by what is written. Clearly, the traffic law has
> been violated if we take this perspective.
No. A legalist says that one MUST obey the Religious Intelligencia's rulings in order to be saved (in my book at least). A Torah Observant believer in Messiah like myself says, "Obey the Torah and the rest of the Bible as you learn it and keep from sin in order to: be a blessing unto Almighty YHVH as the sweet savor of a continual Freewill Offering, be a light unto the World (which is a commandment found in the New Testament), and gain the blessings for this life as outlined throughout Scripture. Obedience to Torah is for our own good. Why dis that, huh?
> I brought up Matthew 12 to show how Jesus's apostles also violated laws
> in this technical way, but Jesus said that the Torah scholars who
> pointed this out had condemned the guiltless. Therefore, Jesus reveals
> to us a righteousness that is greater than the Torah. It is this kind
> of righteousness that we need to grab a hold of, because it is what
> distinguishes the righteousness that comes through Christ from the
> righteousness that comes from observing Torah. This kind of
> righteousness is scary to some people, because it sounds "liberal," but
> when we find that the righteousness that comes through Christ exceeds
> the righteousness of the letter of the law, and that those who are
> righteous through Christ fulfill the righteousness that the law points
> to, then we become confident that this is not some fake righteousness,
> but righteousness in deed and in truth.
No. Yeshua did not reveal a righteousness greater than Torah (Deut 6:25). He was revealing the sin of the Religious Leaders of the time who sought disciples unto themselves, hoping to transfix and bind their talmidim into prisons of legalism.
> Peace be with you.
And Aleichem Slalom to you.
-- slade
> The point that I was trying to make before was that only a legalist
> would call it a sin for someone to slip over the speed limit
> accidentally for a few seconds. Why? Because he is concerned with what
> is written and abiding by what is written. Clearly, the traffic law has
> been violated if we take this perspective.
No. A legalist says that one MUST obey the Religious Intelligencia's rulings in order to be saved (in my book at least). A Torah Observant believer in Messiah like myself says, "Obey the Torah and the rest of the Bible as you learn it and keep from sin in order to: be a blessing unto Almighty YHVH as the sweet savor of a continual Freewill Offering, be a light unto the World (which is a commandment found in the New Testament), and gain the blessings for this life as outlined throughout Scripture. Obedience to Torah is for our own good. Why dis that, huh?
> I brought up Matthew 12 to show how Jesus's apostles also violated laws
> in this technical way, but Jesus said that the Torah scholars who
> pointed this out had condemned the guiltless. Therefore, Jesus reveals
> to us a righteousness that is greater than the Torah. It is this kind
> of righteousness that we need to grab a hold of, because it is what
> distinguishes the righteousness that comes through Christ from the
> righteousness that comes from observing Torah. This kind of
> righteousness is scary to some people, because it sounds "liberal," but
> when we find that the righteousness that comes through Christ exceeds
> the righteousness of the letter of the law, and that those who are
> righteous through Christ fulfill the righteousness that the law points
> to, then we become confident that this is not some fake righteousness,
> but righteousness in deed and in truth.
No. Yeshua did not reveal a righteousness greater than Torah (Deut 6:25). He was revealing the sin of the Religious Leaders of the time who sought disciples unto themselves, hoping to transfix and bind their talmidim into prisons of legalism.
> Peace be with you.
And Aleichem Slalom to you.
-- slade
