� David Miller wrote:
> Dave, > > I think the primary problem here is that you have a very polished > surface which does not reveal your heart. DAVEH:�� Hmmmmm......and what do YOU perceive to be my "heart", DavidM???��� Furthermore.......I'm not quite sure why being polite (at least that is how I perceive 'polished' should be defined in this instance) is a problem.� Would other TTers prefer I be obnoxiously offensive in my posts? > �I'm not trying to offend you. DAVEH:� As you know.......I'm not offended. > In fact, I think some people on TruthTalk admire you in this way. > However, others find it offensive. DAVEH:� I'm bewildered at that, DavidM.� How can being polite be offensive?� What is it I do that would/could offend another.� I have bent over backwards to be respectfully polite and courteous, I think. > At first it appears to some that you are not knowledgeable DAVEH:� Other TTer's have alluded to my ignorance.� If I were to rebut their comments, it would be easy for them to point out specific instances of my ignorance (such as when I questioned your use of dispora.....which I have sense learned is a common term) to prove me wrong.� From my perspective it is easier to swallow my pride and be agreeable with those who see my shortcomings than to prove my lack of knowledge.� Why have a battle over my intelligence/ignorance when it will only make me appear arrogant. > and that you > have a sincere desire to learn of Christianity outside Mormonism. DAVEH:�� And I assure you.....I do.� That does not mean I want to leave Mormonism or subscribe to Protestantism though.� I think I've explained that more than once before.� Does anybody think otherwise? > �I think some might even think you are considering leaving Mormonism. DAVEH:� LOL.....Are you serious???� Is there anybody in TT who really believes that?!?!?!?!� I have specifically stated my intention not to leave the LDS Church more than once, have I not!!! > Then, as they discuss with you, they find that there is not this > innocent desire to learn more, but rather you are very knowledgeable and > have already heard the knowledge shared concerning what you had inquired > about.� This jolts them in that they had an impression of you that > proved to be wrong upon subsequent discussion. DAVEH:� One thing TT has taught me is that regardless of what I say, people will (or want to) read their own beliefs into it.� And I don't think it only happens to me.� How many times have other TTers said that they know what I said I believe, but they know I believe differently....� I have always tried to be up front with my beliefs and have never tried to deceive people as to what I believe or my intentions to remain LDS.� Yet for some reason when I explain that I want to know what a Protestant believes and why they believe that way, some make the assumption that I am looking to leave Mormonism.� Does that make sense to you, DavidM?��� All I want to do is be able to converse with a Protestant (or even a RC) as to how they come to believe what they do instead of seeking that info from another Mormon.� When I do discuss Protestant doctrines (like the T-Doctrine) with other LDS folks, I get the same reaction as I have myself....they don't understand why somebody would believe something (the T-Doctrine) so convoluted and non Biblical. > Another level was breached with regard to the Book of Abraham.� In that > situation, it surely appeared that you do not care at all what the truth > is.� You will believe the Book of Abraham because your church believes > the Book of Abraham, and it really doesn't matter what evidence there is > that would challenge that belief. DAVEH:� At this point in my life, that is correct.� There are many things in LDS theology which I accept on faith, since I do not have an academic knowledge adequate to believe it on an intellectual level.� FWIW......There are many things in the LDS realm that I have not studied in depth.�� And until I have a specific interest to study them, I simply accept them with a measure of faith.� Furthermore.....I would say the same about my belief in Jesus.....I (as you well know) am not a scholar that can prove my belief in Jesus.� But I do have faith and a testimony that he is my Elder Brother who made an atoning sacrifice in my (our) behalf. ��� BTW.......As I think I told you awhile back, I did buy the book you wanted me to read.� I read approximately half of it before I got sidetracked.� It is now boxed with a couple thousand other books awaiting a couple moves, so I don't know when I'll get back to it.� And, I've got to admit.....on the surface, it does sound detrimental to the BofA.� But I learned long ago not to get too excited until all the facts are considered, as most everybody seems to have an agenda when they write a book.� Like I've said before.....I don't have all the answers, but I do have faith. > �This situation especially shook me > because you seemed to project a persona of someone interested in Truth. DAVEH:� You are a classic example of what I explained above, DavidM.� It doesn't seem to matter what I say in TT, you too apparently have assumed otherwise.� Let me state this FTR ONCE AGAIN:� I am not in TT to find an excuse to leave the LDS Church.� Now I ask you......DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT????� (And I don't mean to shout to offend you, or be impolite......I just want to emphasize my position for the umpteenth time so that there is no mistake about why I am here.) > I have seen polished surfaces many times in Christianity... face it, > Christianity is filled with hypocrites.� But this reaction showed to > many here that perhaps there is even demonic activity preventing you > from being honest in this particular situation. DAVEH:� I have tried to be scrupulously honest with you and other TTers about my reason for being in TT.� I'm a visitor in a foreign land, and if I were to suddenly start trying to convert other TTers to Mormonism, then you too would be calling me a hypocrite or worse.� (Come to think of it....I think I have been called such in TT....oh well!)�� If you or any other TTer wants to learn about Mormonism, feel free to ask me questions.� I've always tried to answer them (with the exception of questions regarding our sacred Temple ordinances) with candor to the best of my ability.� If you or anybody else wants to join the LDS Church....I'm the wrong guy and this is the wrong forum.� Though I'll be happy to send a couple of LDS missionaries to help you with that process.� In fact.....I could send my nephew, Jeff, who is doing such work right now!���� :-) ��� Now if you think my honesty to be demonic.....like I said.....a lot of non LDS people like to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth.� I can only tell you what I believe.� Whether you choose to accept what I say.....that's up to you. > �I don't mean this in a > derogatory way, DAVEH:� I understand, and did not take it that way.� From many a Protestant's perspective, Mormonism is.....what should I say.....'demonic'?� So that image is watermarked on everything they see in LDS theology, from our interpretation of the material found in the Bible, to our Temples and everything in between.� If a Mormon were to do any good deed at all, there would always be the underlying thoughts that that good was a result of Satan trying to deceive a Christian.� So, it's hard for us to 'win' in a situation like that.� I think that is one (though not necessarily the only) reason the LDS Church in recent years has mounted a massive public relations campaign to point out that we (LDS folks) don't have horns and a tail. > but rather it just seems very much like the Jews who > will not even consider that Jesus is Messiah.� There is an invisible > veil over the heart. > > So Mormonism appears to many here, as the result of your testimony here, > to be a cult kind of like Judaism, DAVEH:� You make it sound like it is my fault other TTers think we are a cult.� That has been preached by Protestants who are apprehensive of Mormonism for well over a century.� Look at how many books in your library have branded us as a cult!� By painting us with the cult brush, it makes us sound evil to others who they fear may be persuaded to think we are otherwise 'normal'.� It (labeling a cult) is a great tool to bias people away from what is often truth. > where adherence to an institution and > focus upon a particular prophet keeps you from seeing and hearing God in > matters of great importance. DAVEH:� That is what amazes me (and other LDS folks) about this......We view it exactly the opposite.� As you know we believe God has revealed much more than what Protestants accept.� If this is true, then it is their "adherence to an institution [Protestantism] and focus upon a particular prophet [those only found in the Bible] keeps you [them] from seeing and hearing God in matters of great importance."� To me, it is Protestantism that prevents many people from seeing the full breadth of the gospel. > With regards to TruthTalk as a forum and your involvement here, I just > want to remind everyone that TruthTalk is open to everyone regardless of > their religious beliefs. DAVEH:� I wish you would tag that onto the bottom of every TT post as a reminder that TTers should have tolerance for those who may have a contrasting perspective. > �Furthermore, how people participate in the > forum is strictly up to them.� The way DaveH has handled himself is just > fine, in fact, exemplary in many ways.� We could learn a lot about > posting etiquette from DaveH. DAVEH:� Thank you, DavidM.� I appreciate your recognition of that. > If you have some concerns or problems or > you want to make a point, you will simply have to adjust your methods to > work with the way the person you are responding to acts.� With respect > to this forum, there is nothing wrong with a person who is lurking, or > someone who evades answers, or someone who gives poor answers.� Adjust > your posting to produce the best fruit possible, and don't blame others > just because they are not responding the way that you think they ought > to respond. > > I also want to take this opportunity to say that I have very much > appreciated Dave Hansen's continued involvement on TruthTalk.� Because > of him, I have a much better understanding of Mormonism.� I've added > dozens of Mormon books to my library and I have read them because of > Dave Hansen's comments here.� I've gained a much better historical > knowledge of the relationship of the Stone-Campbell restoration movement > and the Mormon restoration movement.� I feel like I know about Joseph > Smith's life in a very detailed way.� For all this knowledge, I am very > grateful, and it would not have come about if Dave Hansen did not prod > me with questions and challenge me with his ideas in this forum.� Thank > you Dave.� :-) DAVEH:� And thank you for not only saying such nice things, but for also providing a forum where diverse ideas can be shared.� I know you've worked hard to build TT to the point it is today, and due to your efforts I feel very comfortable here.� May God bless you and your family! > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... 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