David Miller wrote: Are you seriously going to say that Martin Luther's teaching on this matter was not from the Scriptures?
Judy wrote: If he taught baptismal regeneration, yes I would say that. dm: You speak as if you have not read Martin Luther's Scriptural arguments for baptismal regeneration. Have you read his arguments or are you just taking the position that any understanding other than your own personal understanding is not based upon Scripture? jt: Paul Althaus in The Theology of Martin Luther p.353 writes: "Baptism conveys all of salvation. It effects forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal salvtion to all that believe. Through Baptism I am promised that I shall be saved and have eternal life, both in body and soul. Baptism does not give a particular grace, not only a part of salvation, but simply the entire grace of God, the entire Christ and the Holy Spirit with the gifts." Note: I would call his view way over the top but I admire Martin Luther for his boldness and the stand he took on justification by faith. Sad that the Lutherans are still camped right there. Judy wrote: I don't believe it is arrogant to allow the Holy Spirit to lead me into ALL truth David and on this issue the truth I see in the scriptures is that baptism in itself symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is the combination of faith in this DBR and repentance that cleanses the conscience. dm: And I have agreed with this viewpoint that you have. I can readily say that the Holy Spirit taught you these things. I only ask you to consider adding water baptism to this viewpoint that you already have, and see how it works together with these other things. Put it into practice and watch how people are set free of their sins instantly rather than taking years to put away their sin. jt: Unless you follow these ppl for years, how do you know that all of their sin is put away at baptism? dm: The one thing that I challenge you on is that neither the Holy Spirit nor the Scriptures have taught you that baptism is only an outward symbol of an inward experience that has already taken place. jt: I don't understand why you diminish it's value by putting the 'only' in here. There is nothing wrong with an outward symbol of an inward work of grace. It symbolises our deliverance as Israel was delivered through the red sea from Egypt but in our case as in theirs God does not do away with all of the enemies overnight because they/we would never be able to stand, it is a little at a time. Salvation is an ongoing work of grace and it is the one who endures to the end who is saved. (I take this to mean the end of one's natural life) dm: This teaching is something you heard from the pulpit that made sense to you, not something you read in the Scriptures or something that the Holy Spirit revealed to you. jt: I don't think so David. I've not heard much other than mens programs from the pulpit in ages. I take the scriptures very seriously and have given them a lot of time and attention. Judy wrote: It's OK to read it exactly as it is written but you should understand that Peter wrote it with the cross in mind, that is the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. dm: Amen! I understand that and agree with that. Judy wrote: The scriptures do not contradict themselves and all scripture must be interpreted in the light of other scripture - rather than in the light of tradition and/or dead orthodoxy. dm: Amen, and this is exactly what I have been challenging you with. Your tradition and orthodoxy misses it a little in light of 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and many other passages. jt: Hello????? My tradition and orthodoxy? Who was the one quoting Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Stone-Campbell restoration churches, Church of Christ, Christian Church and the Disciples of Christ. I wouldn't know what all of the above teach. Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
