Judy Taylor wrote:
DAVEH: The Bible clearly explains that baptism is an essential part of salvation. You and DavidM have been discussing such lately, and I don't feel the need to repeat his arguments. However, I believe some passages (that DavidM does not necessarily accept) even clarify the point further. Jesus says in Jn 3:5......DAVEH: To whom the prophets does he reveal those secrets....Amos 3:7"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." jt: Please don't follow this by claiming that Joseph Smith is one of His prophets...
DAVEH: You don't want me to claim that which I believe? OK Judy......forgetting the possibility of JS being a prophet, do you believe it is possible for prophets to be alive today? Or do you think God stopped revealing his secrets to prophets at the close of the Bible?To me it seems pretty logical that if God revealed his secrets to prophets in Bible times, he would continue doing so afterwards.....even unto this day. I have heard that some Christians believe the heavens are sealed though.....do you believe such?
Yes, he did reveal to Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom and he told Moses he was going to wipe out his people... but you've still not come up with any incomprehensible mystery and what is revealed is for us and for our children
DAVEH: Hmmmmmm.......I thought my explanation of paradise qualifies as a 'mystery solved'. Or perhaps instead of it being a mystery, it was just a misunderstanding of how a specific passage of Scripture should be interpreted.
... God still hides things from folk who think themselves wise and prudent and reveals them to babes...
DAVEH: I don't view the thief/paradise deal was hidden by God. IMO.....He plainly revealed it in the Bible, but it became a mystery to those who made assumptions based on other passages that were mysteries.
In Matt 13:13,14,15 Jesus tells his disciples that he speaks in parables to hide things rather than to reveal them
DAVEH: Do you really think he was trying to hide things from the apostles and saints? Read vs 10 and 11..... "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them,, Because it is GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN." >From that it is quite apparent that the saints were to know the mysteries pertaining to the kingdom of heaven. Do you disagree, Judy? (Maybe I am misunderstanding what you've been saying.) jt: I didn't say he hid things from his followers - but he is well able to hide them from those who do not come the narrow way.... I have heard so many ppl say that Jesus used that kind of imagery to make it simple. Things are not always what they appear. DAVEH: Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle. And.....at times, they couldn't even handle that. I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth. jt: There are no 'mysteries' confusing those who have the Truth todayDAVEH: >From what I've seen just conversing with you, there seems to be a big misunderstanding regarding the thief's perceived salvation. I've addressed it in a couple parallel posts today. jt: What is the problem with the "thief's salvation?" Jesus said that day he would be with him in Paradise. I see no problem.
<snip>jt: He has made a 'way of escape' for those who seek Him with their whole heart and are willing to obey Him. The temptations do not come from Him. I know Mormonism negates a personal adversary
DAVEH: HUH?!?!?! Why do you think such? Who told you that? Your perception is not correct. jt It's not? Doesn't Mormonism teach that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in heaven?
DAVEH: LDS theology teaches we were all created by God as spirit children in heaven, which includes you, me, Jesus and Lucifer. Lucifer rebelled and became our "personal adversarys".but that doesn't make him any less real and Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the lie. DAVEH: That's part of it......But not the whole story. The Bible teaches much more, but it has been suppressed to make a 'simpler' theology work for many more people. While baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without baptism, one cannot be saved. (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5) jt: Who has been doing the suppressing Dave? Regeneration by baptism is NOT a scriptural teaching.
".....Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
.........To me, Judy, that passage is pretty self explanatory, unless one is compelled to think 'born of water' really means birth. Well in a sense it does symbolize birth.....a rebirth that is known as baptism.
--DAVEH: Once again I think you've made a false assumption, Judy. Unless you specifically ask for a quotation from other Latter-day revelation, I will base most all my comments I post to TT from the Bible. I use a KJV of the Bible, and accept is as the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. jt: I notice your little qualifier at the end... so who is qualified to translate the scriptures correctly IYO?
God is not trying to make anything simpler for anybody. He says "I am the Lord, I change not" but we as believers are to love ppl and encourage them to repent and to seek Him with their whole heart. He deals with ppl as individuals. The thief who was forgiven on the cross went to Paradise without baptism.
DAVEH: As I indicated at the beginning of this post....... that is another false assumption I believe you have made. I'd love to hear your rebuttal to my explanation (in a couple parallel posts.) jt: It's not an assumption - Jesus told him he would be in Paradise with him that very day. Judy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain Five email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
