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***DAVEH: My latest post has ***............
Judy Taylor wrote:
jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by
the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.DAVEH:
Agreed. The question is......which Scripture? I believe it
applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.....when
you suggest it is "Scripture",
I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so?
Was the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned
man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered
to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned
(respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical
***DAVEH: I agree.
- the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture...
***DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. Do you
have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you
just assuming such?
and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people.DAVEH:
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. As I see it, in no
way has the Bible been sealed. People may misunderstand it, but that
does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep
getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your
words - do you them more important or do you have a humvee mentality??
***DAVEH: LOL.......No, Judy. I use
very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts
on these threads that contain numerous replies. Your replies are
very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous
hard to separate replies. So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive
each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments. Then
I look just beyond them for your replies. I suspect I sometimes overlook
your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them
from the old material.
Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual
understanding the Bible it is a closed volume.
***DAVEH: OK......Now I understand where you are
coming from.
People can speculate about it and write big thick books that
bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began.
God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is
able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and
prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted
independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be
two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible.
DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the
Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding.
***DAVEH: No I'm not kidding, Judy. If you
do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title
page. It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you
to loose your salvation..... :-)
The Book of Mormon is totally other and this is the kind of thing the
prophet warned of when he wrote Isaiah 8:20.
***DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM does speak according to
God's word.
Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age
and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.
***DAVEH: Like I said before, I take Isaiah's comments
about the sealed book far more literally than you do.
DAVEH: I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep'
are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and
are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much Jesus said and
did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I think it
is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that may
be relevant. jt: You may think it shortsighted DaveH but we have
been warned about it and everyone needs to follow their own conscience
on the matter.
***DAVEH: I'm not here to force you to do anything
your conscience opposes. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide.
Since you are relatively new to TT, let me take a moment and explain to
you why I am here. I am very curious (due to my LDS biases) what
Protestants believe, and why they believe the way they do. And, I
also try to answer questions of those who want to know what I believe,
and why I believe it. Furthermore, I sometimes feel compelled to
correct errors and misunderstandings people may have about LDS theology,
as best I can with the knowledge I have. Despite what some may think,
I'm not here to try to convert you to Mormonism. (Though it wouldn't
hurt my feelings if you did!----VBG)
Jesus has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so
we are not dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation.
***DAVEH: I think you would agree that it is better
to have more of God's words than less. Consider how important it
is to have the entire Bible, rather than one with fewer than the 66 books
now included. IMO, with or without the HS, it is better to
have more than less of the Lord's revealed gospel.
dh: He is known
to us by his parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to
become like him.....the commandments. He has give us a commandment
to do so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us
that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2) jt:
Dave you need to be born of the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures.
You have them all mixed up here.
***DAVEH: You didn't explain how I've mixed them
up, so I don't know how to respond to your comment with which I respectfully
disagree.
God is only Father to those
who are in His son; he does not claim devils and rebels.
***DAVEH: I assume you do believe he created the
devils....? I believe our Heavenly Father is our creator of
our spirits (including Lucifer's), and in that sense we are all brothers
who share common roots. That doesn't mean that some of us don't go
astray as did the prodigal son. There is also a step of brotherhood
beyond our common divine origin, and that is the Christian bond of those
who endeavor to follow Christ. In that phase of our 'brotherhood',
we put aside our weakness and in humility try to become one with God.
DAVEH: Do you allow
that he created them? jt:
When he created them they were good.
***DAVEH: Ahhhhhhh......but when he did so, he
knew they would become bad, did he not? That leads us full circle
back to the question of why God creates something he knows will try to
thwart his gospel plan. dh:
Then let me answer that our Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way
that we can do so......by his grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection
and atoning sacrifice. jt: As I have said already DaveH,
the Jesus you speak of is another one, you appear to have mastered the
language of the Bible but something isn't right about it.
***DAVEH: I don't quite know why you think I've
"". I've certainly quoted from it often in TT. My background
(bias) is certainly vastly different than that of Protestantism, so I have
a tendency not to be dragged along by Protestant dogma and traditional
beliefs rooted in Catholicism. As blinded by LDS theology as you
might perceive, I feel likewise about many TTers who choose not to look
beyond their traditional religious upbringing.
For example......When somebody suggests
the thief was saved because Jesus said he was going to paradise, I find
it very interesting that not only has it never occurred to Protestants
that paradise may not equate with heaven, but so far I have not been able
to get any TTers to either explain why my explanation is in error, or offer
an alternative based on what the Bible actually says about the details.
(BTW......For any TTers who are following this, do any of you know of a
book or web site that deals with this apparent discrepancy?)
So......from your perspective I'm sure
I sound like somebody possessed. But.....from my perspective, your
perception that "something isn't right about it" to
me means that the 'something not right' is on your side of the fence,
since it all seems right on my side of the fence.
jt: The Bible doesn't support the
belief that you are gods (plural) or that any man is god.DAVEH:
I quoted Jesus who pointed out the Psalmist suggested just that to his
detractors. If you don't believe me, I understand. Why you
don't believe our Lord, I don't understand. Do you think I've twisted
his words or intent? jt: Yes I think you have done both because
he was not speaking in the same context. The same word that is in John
and Psalm 82 is in Exodus 7:1.
***DAVEH: Elohim is the word used in the latter
two passages, which is a plural form of an object of worship. The
former (used in Jn 10:34) is theos, which is also an object of worship
that refers to elohim used in Ps 82:6.
Do you believe Moses was also God?
***DAVEH: Not only does the usage of the word elohim
in this passage suggest such, it is in the same sense as elohim is used
in many other OT passages, including Gen 1:1.....
"In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth."
........so Judy, yes....that is what the Bible indicates.
Interestingly, it is also in accordance with LDS theology. (IOW......Yes,
as strange as this may seem to you, Judy......I do believe Moses was foreordained
as a God.)
and on your
way back to heaven in a physical body that does not die.
DAVEH: ??? Do you
mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death?
I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most
Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do
you believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive
a resurrected body? jt: No, I do believe those who are redeemed
in the last resurrection will receive a transformed body but they will
always be creatures and never the Creator.
Scripture
is speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth
- so you see this is twisted.
DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation
for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage
in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods"
equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense.
Does that make sense to you, Judy? jt: Yes it does because
Jesus layed aside the glory he had with the father (his divinity) when
he took on a body of flesh and during his earthly ministry he became as
one of us, a man, walking in a 'full measure' of the Holy Spirit.
***DAVEH: ??? You're losing me on that,
Judy. Do you mean to say Jesus was not God while clothed in
a physical body on this earth?
DAVEH: If you
disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think
my analysis is wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it
all makes logical sense. I don't understand why Protestants find
it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain
above. jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you
makes no spiritual sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit
and understand the scriptures in this light.
***DAVEH: I don't want to offend you, Judy.....but
it seems as if you are saying you don't have a logical explanation.
In that sense, does it seem to be a mystery to you?
DAVEH: I would suggest that many
Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative sense).
Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and beliefs
are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities.
I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in
Protestantism. jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following
the revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc?
***DAVEH: Sometimes some of us (LDS) are blinded in
that sense. A lot of folks simply take it on faith and don't worry
about the details. I guess I'm a little screwy in that sense......I
like to know some of the details. (Though not necessarily all of
them.....some things simply don't interest me in a theological sense.)
But I am not led by men's dogma, I have the
Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. The RCC have dogma because
their ppl are not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves.
***DAVEH: That is a good point about the RCC.
I have a good friend who grew up in a convent who says much the same thing.
OTOH I believe that Jesus has made me free and
am not about to go back to any yoke of bondage.
***DAVEH: I've heard that from other TTers (notably
Brother Glenn), and have always been amused by it. Sounds like one
of my relatives who thought freedom means no rules to follow. He
is now addicted to heroine.
Not that we all agree on every detail as you've
probably noted from being on TT DAVEH:
Yes.....I've noted some major differences. I think your belief (assuming
I understood you correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected
body of flesh and bones after you leave mortality is one major difference.
jt: This is not a difference on my part - We've been discussing baptism
and even that is not a major difference really - it turned into different
ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but the differences
are not that great because the Spirit is the same and the Lord will bring
it all together before His return. Mormonism OTOH is entirely different.
You have another gospel,
***DAVEH: I believe it is a fulness of the restored
gospel that seems different to you.
a different Jesus,
***DAVEH: I don't recall discussing that with you,
other than to say the Jesus in which I proffer my faith atoned for my (our)
sins, died on the cross and was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones.
along with a different spirit. Judy
***DAVEH: I do hope you find it not to be a spirit
of dissension.....
--
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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