jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest
of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are
'another gospel'
DAVEH: Does that mean you have
read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard
from others?
jt: I have a copy of the Book of Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly
say I have read it, scripture is my priority.
DAVEH: OK.....I understand. Your comments
regarding it are then a result of what you've heard others say as opposed to
questions that arise from your personal reading of it.
jt: I have no reason to read the book of Mormon; I believe it is heresy
and that I would be wasting the Lord's time.
DAVEH: I respectfully
disagree. The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is
29:11-18)
jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is
29:11-18 is the Scripture.
DAVEH: Agreed. The question
is......which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I
believe is Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest it is
"Scripture", I assume you mean
that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the Bible
sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said,
"I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that said he
was unlearned?
jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is
extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as
scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of
people.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your
assessment. As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed.
People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it
sealed.
jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it
necessary to overemphasize your words - do you them more important or do you
have a humvee mentality?? Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the
meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed
volume. People can speculate about it and write big thick
books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they
began. God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which
noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things
from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of
scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture
and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible.
DAVEH: IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the
Bible.
jt: You've got to be kidding. The Book of Mormon is totally other
and this is the kind of thing the prophet warned of when he wrote Isaiah
8:20. Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the
Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is
one.
DAVEH: Lots of experts have poured over the Bible,
both in an effort to credit and discredit it. I've never heard any
claiming it or the meaning was sealed to them......have
you?
jt: Not so far but that doesn't mean there haven't been any
- I don't have to know ALL things. FTR I don't believe that DavidM is
one of those.
jt: Probably because as the
scriptures say "His sheep recognize His voice and another voice they do not
follow"
DAVEH:
Reference, please?
jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice'
DAVEH: I obviously believe
the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra
Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd. There is much
Jesus said and did that is not included in the Bible, Judy (Jn 21:25), and I
think it is a bit shortsighted to not allow for extra Biblical material that
may be relevant.
jt: You may think it shortsighted DaveH but we have been warned about it
and everyone needs to follow their own conscience on the matter. Jesus
has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so we are not
dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation. OTOH we are told to
have our senses exercised so that we may discern good from evil and hold fast
to that which is good.
DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully
disagree.
jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know
which voice you are listening to?
DAVEH: Because I feel I'm seeing
it from both sides.
jt: Just like Eve in the garden... "Hath God said?" If you swallow
this you'll be able to see the bigger picture...... <snip> The Jews were
wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said he made himself equal
with God.
DAVEH: EXACTLY! And Jesus
pointed out that their own Scripture allows for that. The reason they
could not trap him in blaspheme is because Jesus was nothing for which
Scripture did not allow. And as the Psalmist suggested......it allows
the same for us.
jt: Judges on this earth who speak for God in matters of litigation and
the belief that men originated in heaven as gods and are in some kind of an
adept system that will get them back there is inserting some other meaning to
the text.
".....Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?" ........From this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both instances
has divine properties.
jt: Only in the sense that men represent God on this earth. God uses it
for Moses when he stands before Pharoah Exodus 7:1.
DAVEH: That wasn't the intent of
Jesus' reply to them at all. jt: Not your Jesus, but it was what the Jesus of Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob was talking about.
dh: When you consider the overall
message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes logical sense. We were created
in the image of God (plural).
jt: The first man Adam was a created
being and he was created in the "image of God"
(singular)
DAVEH: I disagree. He
created them in the image of a PLURAL God......Elohim. Gen
1:26...... "And God said, let
US make man in our image......"
jt: The Godhead is 'one God'
DAVEH: I've
got a lot to say about this commonly misunderstood term, Judy. (In my
opinion, the 'oneness' of the Godhead implies a common purpose.) If you
want to discuss it under another thread, I'd be happy to oblige you.
which consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and man is created in the
image of God the Father of spirits in that he is primarily a spirit being with
a body and a soul.
DAVEH: Do you believe Jesus has a
physical body of flesh and bones right now??? And, do you believe we
will also receive a resurrected body of flesh and bones after our
death?
However, he is still a created being, he is not God.
DAVEH: Do you believe Jesus was 'created'?
jt: Only his body....
- but he (Adam) fell and the
rest of us who were in his loins fell with him. We now are born in a fallen
state. Genesis 5:3 teaches that Adam lived 130yrs and had a son in his
likeness (rather than Gods) who was Seth..
dh: He is known to us by his parental
name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like him.....the
commandments. He has give us a commandment to do so. (Mt
5:48) Furthermore, he has told us that we shall be like
him. (1Jn 3:2)
jt: Dave you need to be born of the
Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures. You have them all
mixed up here. God is only Father to those who are in His son; he does
not claim devils and rebels.
DAVEH: Do you allow that he
created them?
jt: When he created them they were
good.
The commandments do not conform anyone
to His image, the ONLY way to return to that state is to be conformed to the
image of Christ and this can only happen by the power that comes through His
resurrection. The promise in 1 John 3:2 is to those who are "in Christ" not
just everyone out there.
DAVEH: due to your
(presumed) Protestant background I sometimes make assumptions in order to
speed up the process of chatting in a forum such as TT. That is why I
try to ask if I have analyzed your thinking correctly whenever I do
that. Otherwise the discussions would bog down and take forever to
complete.
jt: I believe the scriptures and
they teach that God will cause me to overcome and I will be conformed to the
'image of Christ'
dh: Then let me answer that our Beloved
Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by his grace,
specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning
sacrifice.
jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another one,
you appear to have mastered the language of the Bible but something isn't
right about it. Yours is not the same Jesus who is coming for His Church
which is without spot, wrinkle, or blemish....the whole temple ritual
thing is from what I've read taken from Masonic ritual and this is the
old mystery religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself
differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel
when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into.
DAVEH: You've lost me on much of
that, Judy, as I don't recall discussing it with you. So, I am assuming
you are expressing your opinion based on things you have heard from folks
other than me?
DAVEH: >From the few things
you've said so far, I think you have a lot of misunderstandings about what I
believe, Judy. I'm not trying to convert you to Mormonism.
Nor am I quoting Latter-day Scripture to you. What I've done above is
point out the Bible supports one of my beliefs that you find
unacceptable.
jt: The Bible doesn't support the
belief that you are gods (plural) or that any man is god.
DAVEH: I quoted Jesus who pointed
out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors. If you don't
believe me, I understand. Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't
understand. Do you think I've twisted his words or
intent?
jt: Yes I think you have done both because he was not speaking in the
same context. The same word that is in John and Psalm 82 is in Exodus
7:1. Do you believe Moses was also God?
and on your way
back to heaven in a physical body that does not
die.
DAVEH: ??? Do you
mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death?
I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most
Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do you
believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive a
resurrected body?
jt: No, I do believe those who are redeemed in the last resurrection will
receive a transformed body but they will always be creatures and never the
Creator.
Scripture is
speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth - so
you see this is twisted.
DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation for Ps 82:6, then it
would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage in defense of his accusers
claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods" equates to "judges" removes the
divine nature that Jesus used in his defense. Does that make sense to
you, Judy? jt: Yes it does because Jesus layed aside the
glory he had with the father (his divinity) when he took on a body of flesh
and during his earthly ministry he became as one of us, a man, walking in a
'full measure' of the Holy Spirit.
DAVEH: If you disagree (and I'm
pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think my analysis is
wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it all makes logical
sense. I don't understand why Protestants find it so hard to accept
the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain
above.
jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you makes no spiritual
sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit and understand the
scriptures in this light.
DAVEH: I would suggest that many
Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative
sense). Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and
beliefs are simply accepted without considering contrasting
possibilities. I think you understand Scripture in light of what is
commonly taught in Protestantism.
jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following the revelations of Joseph
Smith, Brigham Young etc? But I am not led by men's dogma, I have the
Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. The RCC have dogma because their
ppl are not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves. OTOH I believe
that Jesus has made me free and am not about to go back to any yoke of
bondage. Not that we all agree on every detail as you've probably noted
from being on TT
DAVEH: Yes.....I've noted some
major differences. I think your belief (assuming I understood you
correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected body of flesh and
bones after you leave mortality is one major difference.
jt: This is not a difference on my part - We've been
discussing baptism and even that is not a major difference really - it turned
into different ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but
the differences are not that great because the Spirit is the same and the Lord
will bring it all together before His return. Mormonism OTOH is entirely
different. You have another gospel, a different Jesus, along with a
different spirit.
Judy
