> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 12/19/2003 6:34:26 PM
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] *****Rebuke should be specific-Yes I agree.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > I consider the fact the DaveH is allowed to dwell among
> > the brethren as sin, David. To me it is a clear violation
> > of the Bible-as it also was to J. Wesley.
>
> It still seems to me that you are thinking of this list like a church or
> someone's home where we all live together. Many on the list I have
> never met. I have never met any of the Mormons, never shook their hand,
> never eaten with them. How can you possibly say that my allowing them
> to post here is a violation of the Bible? From my perspective, that
> would be like saying that allowing the newspaper in my town to publish
> articles from those who are not Christians is sin. Or maybe you think I
> should run off all my neighbors who are not Christians? Please examine
> your basic premise of why you think this list ought not allow anyone but
> Christians. How is it sin to allow non-Christians to post their views
> here? Believe me, Dean. If you convince me, I will change. If you
> cause me to even doubt and suspect that I might be sinning by doing
> this, I will take down the list immediately. I have no desire other
> than to do God's will. I see some benefit of learning in the list and
> that is why it exists. I will never place learning above holiness, so
> if something is wrong with what I'm doing, all you have to do is show it
> to me and I will change.
Dean writes
David I doubt if I could show you anything but God on the other hand can.
I am not asking you to close down this list-I have seem good fruit on this
list as you have strengthened the brethren in some area's-I do not view you
as being wrong about the Bible overall-but in this area I view you as being
wrong. In other area you have deep insight and I have learned from you. I
am suggesting modification to this site-as in there being a time limit
those of a false doctrine be allowed among the brethren. You seem to
believe that because this is the Internet then it is safe to have a ongoing
relationship with false teachers-and there are interaction here to the
extent of there being a relationship.Izzy herself speaks of how close she
has grown to you-I think you have also grown close to DaveH here.There are
dynamics here that are far more them just words. Adultery are committed by
people simply from talking and meeting over the internet.This place is
called a room that you are supporting-in that sense this is your "place" or
your virtual house. I believe bonds are created here and those bond can be
stronger because of this forum-here you imagination can help create the
image of the person you are talking to as being more perfect then what they
are-or harder then what they are.The idea of not inviting a false teacher
to your home isn't just the physical contact that works in the interaction
between the two-it is the time spent in the conversing between those of God
and those of the devil-God is saying to limit that time-and to limit those
thing that will cause a bond to form. A bond with those of the devil will
lead to the trap that J.Wesley warned about-it will inevitable cause us to
lower out guard and allow us to speak those things that will harm our
relationship with God.Why do you think I keep coming back here-I formed a
bond with you-with tremendous respect for you as a teacher-till this Mormon
issue came between that relationship and it affected our relationship but
the bond I formed with you is still there.
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> Have you ever studied John Calvin's town of Geneva? He took the
> approach that you do toward not allowing anything that is not Biblical
> to happen in town. The goal was to create a Biblical Utopia. Well, he
> went at it for many years, but in my opinion, the whole thing was a
> failure. People were not free. Study how Michael Servetus, a traveler
> from another country, was burned at the stake because he believed in
> Oneness doctrine rather than the Trinity. I think your attitude is very
> much like John Calvin's in this regard.
I don't reguard J'Calvin as a Christian-as he served Satan guite well. I am
not saying to remove ourselves completely from all sinners-Please guit
saying that.I am saying to limit that time. Yes, we must preach to them in
public and there must be some interaction-but there we are on guard against
attacks-but in our homes we are more relaxed and the guard is removed. I am
speaking to you in my home now-am I not?I do not view my attitude as the
same a J.Calvins and it saddens me that you would.
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> John Wesley did not have e-mail lists, so why do you say that he would
> agree with you?
Answered in the above.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > But what does the Bible tell us about the moon-I don't
> > feel that this is open to private interpretations as
> > words have meanings. Do you see the difference?
>
> Yes, there is a difference, but I chose an extreme to make a point.
> Some ideas are so foolish that they are no threat whatsoever. No matter
> how long you hang around someone who thinks the moon is cheese, you are
> not in danger of being deceived by it. It might be that Mormonism is
> not as attractive to me as it is to you. I don't know.
Dean writes:
I do know-Mormonism turns my stomach. I believe I can actually feel the
spirit behind them-why would you think I am attracted to Mormonism? I am
not the one seeking to keep a relationship with them -you are.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > That is the difference between us David- I see a false
> > teachers as the same as Paul Hill-You see P.Hill as a
> > killer-
>
> Right. I do not see them as the same.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > I see DaveH as a killer also as I believe he is
> > here to steal seeds of life-
>
> You may not realize this, but when you are not here and Glenn is not
> here, DaveH seems to be pretty quiet. Dave responds to the jabs that
> you guys throw at him. I actually think he treats it as entertainment.
> I think he likes Glenn's style a little better than yours. Maybe he
> thinks he can control Glenn better. I never saw DaveH so sad as when
> Glenn left the list. He has been trying to talk him into coming back
> ever since that time.
Dean writes:
We will see if DaveH is entertained on that day. Why did Glen leave?
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>
> I think that if DaveH were here to steal seeds of life as you put it, he
> would have left a long time ago. Several Mormons have come and gone,
> but Dave sticks around, mostly in lurk mode. It does not seem like he
> is trying to steal any seeds, but simply observe our discussions.
Dean writes:
Which devil should one be more concerned with-the one that
leaves or the one that stays? Do you not understand? He isn't a
Christian-therefore he is of the devil.
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> Dean wrote:
> > Remember the passage that had to do with not
> > even wishing those that bring a false doctrine
> > Good luck.
>
> This particular passage is 2 John. Look at it again.
>
> 2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new
> commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we
> love one another.
> 2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is
> the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should
> walk in it.
> 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not
> that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
> antichrist.
> 2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have
> wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
> 2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of
> Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath
> both the Father and the Son.
> 2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,
> receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
> 2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil
> deeds.
>
> The commandment is:
> Verse 5: Love one Another
> Verse 6: Walk after His commandments
> Verse 7 : Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
>
> Hasn't DaveH brought each of these here with him?
Dean writes:
But hasn't he also brought baptism as a way of salvation(those of Exod.19
almost got killed for this error). Joe. Smith and his teaching as Godly.
Works as a way of salvation.Does he walk after all the commandments of God.
Doesn't the devil appear as the angle of light? Close to Christianity but
not quite. Statements such as the one you just made justify my case.DaveH
is no Christian.Didn't Izzy herself say she had to rebuke him?I wasn't here
then-so something happened while I wasn't here.
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>
> I'm not trying to confuse anything. Dave teaches kind of like Socrates
> I suppose. He teaches when invited to, but withholds if not. Just look
> at his recent response to Perry for example. He was not asked
> questions, so he does not volunteer information. He is overly polite,
> in my opinion, but I can understand it when so many want to ascribe
> false motives for his being here.
Dean writes:
Then as he teaches false doctrine-do you agree he is of Satan?
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>
> Dean, where else can you get loud mouth preachers to talk civilly with a
> quiet and somewhat shy Mormon? Think about it.
Dean writes:
David we have many one on one conversation with Mormons-but at time we
preach loudly.
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>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> In the many denominations of Christianity, errant
> >> ideas are rampant. If we separated from everyone
> >> who thought about things in the wrong way, as
> >> we matured and came to know more and more things,
> >> we would not be able to have fellowship with anyone.
Dean writes:
So do you claim fellowship with DaveH?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > I whole disagree with that statement-as the Bible is
> > clear on these issues and once studied out on all issues.
> > God isn't that unclear.
>
> So Roman Catholics have no errant doctrines, and the Greek Orthodox have
> no errant doctrines, and the Baptists have no errant doctrines, and the
> Presbyterians have no errant doctrines, and the Wesleyans have no errant
> doctrines, and the Episcopalians have no errant doctrines, and the
> Messianics have no errant doctrines, and the Seventh Day Adventists have
> no errant doctrines, and the Churches of Christ have no errant doctrines
> and the Pentecostals have no errant doctrines and the charismatics have
> no errant doctrines? Need I go on? I don't understand what you are
> trying to say.
I view the most doctrine you mentioned as denominations and Mormonism as a
cult with a couple of exceptions.A saint is defined in Rev.14:12 as keeping
the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. Do
Mormons do this?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > The why did you claim him as a Christian in the
> > last post? And why do you say he doesn't sin when
> > you just admitted he does in the above post?
>
> I usually use the word "Christian" to refer to someone who professes a
> faith in Jesus Christ. DaveH does this, so I consider him a Christian.
> Most Roman Catholics I consider Christians also. This does not mean
> that I think they have eternal life. They simply subscribe to a
> religion of men that has Jesus Christ as its center focus.
Dean writes:
Is Christ the center focus of Mormonism or is Joseph Smith?Do they live by
the words of Christ or the words of Smith?That is the real test.. Many
people believe he existed as a prophet or as a nice man-but to us He is
much more then that-we believe he is God.
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>
> Sometimes I might refer to how a "true Christian" would act for the sake
> of discussion, in order to be brief. If I say that, then I mean someone
> who has truly met Jesus and has trust and faith in Him. For example, I
> might tell DaveH that if he were a true Christian, he would not continue
> to sin. I might say the same thing to Gary too.
Dean writes:
Stopping sin in itself will not save anyone-we must be washed in the Blood.
To even consider DaveH as a Christian-or to call him one is a mistake. One
should strongly stand against this false teaching as it leads souls to hell.
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > I don't think that issues that have nothing
> > to do with sin or warning should divide
> > brethren-nor will I be drawn into a cult.
> > Some issues have a low level of importance
> > others are more serious.
>
> When I was but a lad and had not studied, life was so much more simple.
> I did not recognize dangerous ideas for what they were. As my knowledge
> increased, the danger of more and more ideas became glaring. My bar of
> discernment continues to move, and I suspect yours does too. Many
> things that have a low level of importance for you now will have a
> serious level of importance for you later. We have to pick our fights
> and we have to choose wisely, because sometimes the fights themselves,
> even if you are on the right side, cause more damage than the doctrine
> you are dealing with. This is why the Scriptures always admonish us to
> rebuke with meekness.
Dean writes:
The only thing I want to know is Christ-the only thing I want to present
is Christ-if this causes harm then I will have to let the great judge
decide that. But I do admit that some fights should be weighted to see if
there is any good to gain but this is after Christ is presented not before.
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> David Miller wrote:
> >> To drive the point home, just look at the Judaizers
> >> in the book of Galatians. Paul never urged
> >> excommunication over this false doctrine. They
> >> disputed about it and disputed about it. Even
> >> when they went to Jerusalem and doctrinally settled
> >> the matter with the apostles and elders there, they
> >> still did not come back with excommunication for the
> >> Judaizers. They simply taught the truth and said that
> >> the apostles and elders in Jerusalem agree.
> >> And for Paul, this doctrine meant damnation for the
> >> Galatians if they followed the false doctrine, yet, he
> >> never excommunicated them. Why?
>
> Dean wrote:
> > I don't read it this way-I see Paul going up Jerusalem
> > with Barnabas and rebuking Peter 2:11 and due to that
> > rebuke the gospel of peace is vindicated. Later Peter
> > teaches the same thing Paul did. In short Peter
> > repented.
>
> You have the events confused. Galatians 2:11 concerns Peter's trip to
> Antioch, not Paul's trip to Jerusalem. This event happened in Acts 11,
> whereas I was talking about Acts 15, something that happened later. My
> point is that the Judaizers are not excommunicated. We don't see
> anything like what we see in 1 Cor. 5 where the church is told not to
> endure the fornicator, but to cast him out of the church. The Galatians
> were never instructed to cast out Judaizers. Rather, their doctrine is
> simply refuted. I suspect that the Judaizers tried pulling rank on
> Paul, claiming that Peter, James, and other in the Jerusalem church
> taught what they were teaching. That's why they went to Jerusalem, to
> put to silence that false claim.
>
> Even when they came back from Jerusalem, there was no bull of
> excommunication to cast out the Judaizers. Rather, the letter they sent
> along with the prophets were to instruct them how the Jerusalem church
> acknowledges how Gentiles are welcome into the body of Christ without
> abiding in the Mosaic covenant.
Dean writes:
True but these Galatians were also given some very important laws to live
by as shown in verse 20 1.to Abstain from the Pollution of Idols;2.from
Fornication3.and from things strangled 4. and from blood; But to be bound
by the ceremonial law of circumcision was to be removed. How about the
commandment to love the brethren was it removed? How about lying ? Or
Murder? Was those laws removed? It would seem to me that they were not
removed-hence the commandment were/are still in effect. There were issues
that this early church had to work out -so the elders had to deal with
those issues-but I fail to see where this passage would cancel out the
clear instructions keeping a distance from those of a false doctrine.
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?
> I fully agree that we need to be careful about false doctrine, but I see
> neither Jesus nor Peter and James removing themselves completely from
> the constant presence of the Pharisees who had not converted. Only Paul
> removed himself at some point, because he was the apostle to the
> Gentiles, but the others continued meeting in the synagogues and were
> basically considered Jews by the Jews. James especially had an
> excellent reputation among them as a very holy and pious man. These men
> were warned about the leaven of the Pharisees, but he did not remove
> themselves from it, even when it became evident that Peter was tainted
> by it in the Galatians 2:11 passage.
Dean writes:
We also go to the false churches and synagogues to preach-but we leave them
out of out lives so our time is limited with them. Peter was fortunate to
have Paul to help him return to the correct path. Will we all be that
fortunate? Men like Jonathan Edwards pleaded with God daily not to remove
his Spirit from them because they knew that Spirit was the only thing
holding then up. Shouldn't we also have a strong concern for our souls?
Hell is a very bad place.
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> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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