Jt writes: Thank you for your intent but what would make you think I have a chip on my shoulder Reuben? Just because I'm talking about LOVE?
Ruben: Well I read that you have a hard time with men who preach the truth like Dean or Kevin. It appears to me that you seem to think that "love" was the message preached with John the Baptist, Jesus, Apostles and should be declare today. In reality the main theme from Old to New and should be today is and should be repentance. Other than that we must examine ourselves, if we just want to tickle ears and be everyone friend. ================================ I've studied for years and have been seriously looking tonight and I can't find what I am reading on TT; yes the prophets rebuked when Israel went off into apostasy but I don't see this pattern in the NT Ruben: I will give you a few examples and I would like you to match the amount of (love message) or examples I am giving you. If you cannot match my examples given then maybe you could at least learn something here. And please do not give me Epistles to read, remember context is important. The Epistles were written to "saints" or "Churches" and not whosoever in that city. If you wish to read what Paul preached on the street in Rome, go to Acts not Romans and if you wish to find out what he preached on the street while in Corinth, go to Acts, 1&2 Corinthians were written to believers. How I speak to Christians that are saved is much different when speaking to unsaved people. John the Baptist (Mt.3:1-12): I think it would be safe to say John was not a suite and tie type of guy? His basic message that he preached to the general people was "Repent ye.." But to those Pharisees and Sadducees that came to him he said "O generation of VIPERS, who hath warned you of the WRATH to come? (note: now this is not the way to win people over John, why did he not give them the four spiritually laws?). He now demands evidence of repentance and not some quick your sealed and saved now deal. John even answered their question before they asked, of being the seed of Abraham (note: now that is a cheap shot, saying that they were no better than stones and if you really want to rebuke "in love"..whatever that means...at least dress up when you represent the Lord, John?). Then he says because they have no fruit the tree is to be chopped down and used for FIRE, in fact the axe has already made contact with the roots and not in the swing mode. Lastly in verse 12 he must bring up this "unquenchable fire".why he called them names, he belittled who they were, he demands fruit or get burned and now this "unquenchable fire?" Why Judy, I think he just turn people off..where is his love.and why must he be disrespectful to other religions..does he start the New Testament with this "ministry of rebuke??" Well, that's not all.eventually John gets jailed..FOR CALLING THE KING AN ADULTERER.has he no shame? Maybe he deserved to go to jail.maybe jail was God judging him for being so offensive..maybe his ministry would have lasted longer if he only preached "God loves you and so do I"??? Or maybe God is being consistent with His messengers? Our Lord Jesus, his first word of his first message was "Repent" (Mt.4:17). Mt. 5:22,29; 7:19; 8:12; 9:13; 10:28; 11:23; 13:30, 40, 42, 50; 17:15; 18:8-9; 22:13, chapter 23; 24:51, 25:30 25:41, 46; Mk.6:12; Lk.13:2-5; 16:23, 24:47; Jn.15:6, These are just a few verses that Jesus preaches on repentance/hell/punishment/fire/torment unlike the famous "John 3:16" verse that I pointed out was never quoted to another person nor mentioned in another Gospel, these verses on hell/punishment/fire/torment can be recited in all three Gospels. If you could match the amount of verses where Jesus preached "God loves you," then I will move on to the Book of Acts to scrutinize, if they preached Repentance or God loves you (note: I don't know about every one else but I'm starting to see a pattern here). ===================================== So Jesus words were exclusively for Nicodemus when he said "For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved? He that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil?" (Jn 3:17-19) Ruben: Well my point was that this very famous verse "John 3:16" was not a common message that was always given, but to one man at night and never repeated in any other Gospel, or another person nor was it rehearsed in the Book of Acts. Whereas the word "Repent" is quoted continuously, so why would people shudder at this word? ================================= Only a half truth Ruben. Shame on you. Jesus first message gave the reason to repent, it was "Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" I appreciate your list of some of the things Jesus did during His earthly ministry but I am interested in this ministry of rebuking since this is what we have been discussing and my own list follows: Ruben: Please Judy do not think that I am giving you a fractioned verse, the central theme I was making was the word "Repent" and not the message, so please remove your chip on shoulder, so we can move on. ================================ Jesus rebuked The wind and the sea (Matt 8:26; Mk 4:39; Lk 8:24). Jesus rebuked Satan (Matt 17:18; Mk 1:25;Lk 4:35). Jesus rebuked Peter when he let Satan use him and spoke for Satan (Mk 8:33). Jesus rebuked the foul spirit in a boy having convulsions (Mk 9:25). Jesus rebuked a fever and it left (Lk 4:39). Jesus rebuked an unclean spirit (Lk 9:42). Jesus rebuked his disciples for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans (Lk 9:55). His disciples tried doing some rebuking when some blind men cried out to Jesus for mercy (Matt 20:31, Lk 18:39), and people brought children to Him (Mk 10:13; Lk 18:15) but Jesus overrode their rebukes. Ruben: These verses I am using are not coming from a concordance but actual sections of my studies on the matter and keep in mind that is issue is preaching and not chewing out the disciples or demons. PREACHING. Your questions are good and with time we can walk into all your reservations, but let us stay focus on the point here (1 Corinthians 14:40). ================================ The apostle Peter who was a first hand witness to the ministry of Jesus said that "God anointed Him (Jesus of Nazareth) with the Holy Spirit and power and he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil for God was with Him - and we are His witnesses" (Acts 10:38) Ruben: Ok.and your point is? If doing good means that he did not offend or rebuke people, cities and generations, then I suggest we start cutting out verses and whole chapters in the Gospels. I am trying to understand if you want to argue just for the sake of arguing or would you like to learn something? I just do not understand your point here? When Jesus gave the last commission to the disciples he told them to GO INTO ALL THE WORLD AND PREACH.not cast out devils, heal people or go into all the world a speak with tongues the emphasis is PREACHING (Mk.16:15) as it should be with you. And for the record I do believe in casting out devils and hands on the sick but I believe PREACHING was first. =============================== Ruben, Jesus also said "the prince of this world cometh and has nothing in me" (Jn 14:30) So let me ask you. Does the prince of this world have anything in you? Have you totally and completely overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil and are you doing the works of Jesus? Ruben: Nothing. For example preaching at sodomite parades, where nude men and women march boasting in their sin, I have never lusted after them or wanted to be like them. Same thing during Mardi Gras, Spring Break, Rock concerts this has never influenced me in any way. You know the text, "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1Jn.4:4).maybe the problem is that you may believe and know these verses BUT HAVE NEVER TASTED OF THEM? Over the years I've had curses, hexes, spells chants placed on me from witches, Satanists, gurus, tree huggers, palm readers and even Christians to name a few, and they are like trying to dent a tank with a bb gun..NO CAN DO. ============================== I don't see Paul and/or the other apostles rebuking and testifying against the world per se Ruben. In fact both Peter and Paul begged men not to fall down and worship them. They were being treated as gods because of God's power in their lives. Ruben: Ok Judy.your right they were just a bunch of Love-Bugs and maybe wept over sinners or started a band and sang people into the kingdom of God? How about puppet shows did someone forget to tell Stephen about those puppet shows or tract tables instead of preaching that message? Maybe we all have it wrong.maybe Judy has the Keys to evangelism.and only Judy is the Keeper of the Gospel. Judy why does everything need to be a cat-fight with you? The point I made is a hard fact. The fact that these men were hated, beaten jailed and killed because why? Think, before shooting from the hip. Look for yourself what the Apostle Paul used as a hallmark for being a Christian, stripes, jail, tumults, dishonour, evil report, sorrowful, etc.etc. (2Co.6:5-12).would people do this to some who walks around blessing everyone with "God loves you".what did they do or say that caused this persecution? ============================== So you kind of look down on those who don't do it like you do? Like the little servant girl who told Namaan's wife the prophet in Israel could help him be healed from his leprosy? Ruben: Wrong again, I pass out tracts and encourage that, but passing out tracts and talking with someone one on one should be as common as breathing. These men in Acts made NO SMALL STIR in cities they preached at. I have encouraged many people to be bolder witness for the Lord. We have T-shirts, hats, jackets, banners, sandwich signs and even boats and cars that have Bible verses on them. I love to talk about God, one on one or one on ten thousand, it does not matter to me. Last month in Scotland I prayed for a young girl on the streets that wanted boldness like us. During the prayer she wept and after my prayer I gave her a hand full of tracts to pass out to people. But to think that I would look down on someone for not doing it the I do is absolutely shocking..that chip must be heavy? ============================== Pardon me but did Jesus send the 70 out, telling them to stay at houses with people and share the message of His Kingdom with them? Ruben: Of course they stayed at somebody's home, but my point was that they did not go knocking door to door sharing the good news, that is not evangelizing. Like in Acts there is no record of them knocking on doors and inviting people to Church, as the Mormons do, in fact the Church was in the homes where the stayed. ============================= The day of Pentecost in Acts 2:14 was not a contrived affair, they were being obedient and waiting as they had been instructed to receive power from on high, it was when the Lord showed up that there was a LARGE stir. Ruben: Ok (???).I do not know what you are trying to communicate? So the disciples did not preach until the Holy Ghost came.is that not the purpose of the Holy Ghost? "But ye shall receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and YE SHALL BE MY WITNESSES ." (Acts 1:8) You do believe that the Holy Spirit is to promote Jesus/be a witness/preach and not just make you feel good and cozy. This would be more the line of the Mormon testimony after reading and praying about the book of Mormon. The Holy Ghost does not boast of himself but will endorse in you that Jesus is the Christ. ========================== Because the Lord worked with them - confirming HIS Word with signs following not because they climbed flag poles or waved Mormon underwear. Ruben: The flag pole was done by Chuck Spingola once.has anyone else did this? The waving this ungodly garment is done to the Mormons during their convention only and not all day, it is used to get a crowd, so we can discuss multiple topics. His Word is confirmed, maybe if you would invest in a trip to Salt Lake City to see or teach us the correct way to win Mormons over, I would love to see it. But if you do not come but just continue to criticize and carp then you would be remind me of someone who loves to debate politics, AND NEVER VOTES. ============================ There is no glory in that alone Ruben. Are you doing the works of Jesus? Ruben: Would you rather us just stay home and criticize those who are out there on a key board.I'm sure these Mormons would love that, and if I truly believed that verse like you take it.maybe I should stop writing to you??? There are people out there getting saved, getting born again and just because someone does not like your style, you question Jesus in them? The body is large with many parts, not everyone is "Ruben" nor do I wish it and not everyone is "Judy" and I am thankful for that. ============================ America is not a Christian Nation and there are laws against making a public disturbance Ruben. How about Romans 13:1-5, does this also apply to Street Preachers? Ruben: I do not have a chip on the shoulders, not all laws are made against street preachers, I do not believe all police officers are evil, I do not believe all politicians are wicked and there are some bad Churches out there, but I would not discard them all because of the bad. But our country has many rights that no other can come close to, with people literally dying to come in. We do have freedoms on the public sidewalk and I also understand to MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS REQUIRED. So every American will be judged harder than those Christians in China who risk their lives just reading the Bible and do not have those rights that you and I have. Do you take advantage of living in America or is that just another avenue to whine about? ============================= The Mormons had a 'real deal' as you call it who walked the streets in a white robe preaching and calling himself a prophet. He is in jail right now for kidnapping Elizabeth Smart. Sure he was crazy but his methods are the same. Ruben: He was not a street preacher, but a Mormon BROKEN ARROW. Again, I do not understand your point or what that has to do with my statement? I pointed out how men in the Bible were jailed and persecuted as fruit of the real deal and questioned their prophet who is untouchable, never walking the streets rebuking sin as the Biblical prophets did. So if you wish to insert this kidnapper with Elijah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jonah, John the Baptist.what can I say, other than that chip has now become a BOULDER. ============================ Don't forget to add Abraham's reply to the rich man" They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.... If they hear not Moses and the prophets - neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead" (Lk 16:29,31) There is a lesson there for all of us; if ppl will not receive God's Word - then what is the point of getting out on the streets rebuking and condemning them? Ruben: Do you know the difference between judging and condemning? We condemn no one, but judge him or her by their fruit, nobody that I know condemns anyone.that is the Fathers business and not mine. If someone is on the wrong path we warn them, if someone is meek, we encourage them. Do you really think that we stand on the street condemning people to hell? That chip on your shoulder must be a colossal? ============================== Are you sure this burden is from the Lord Ruben? Jesus ministry was to announce the gospel of the Kingdom which is GOOD NEWS; the definition of the gospel is to declare and bring GOOD TIDINGS, it is a GOOD MESSAGE. Ruben: So this is why they killed Jesus, would they really crucify someone with a "good message" or because He preached "good tidings" to everyone..ALL RIGHTY THEN. =============================== I'm glad to hear you are versatile - ATST this attitude in Street Preachers toward loving people is of concern to me because if you are not building on the foundation of Christ then it is all wood, hay, and stubble. Ruben: Speaking the truth is Love, see 1 John 3:18 for details =============================== This is what I have been saying - persuading men is one thing, rebuking and condemning them is something else again. Ruben: Persuading men is part of debating, which is Biblical too. So if rebuking is something we should not do, then why do we find so many examples in the Bible, if the Holy Spirit does not want us to do that, why would he inspire the writer to publish those examples? And once again we condemn no one, but judge people by their fruit, where someone goes after they die is the Fathers business, pure speculation on our part Ruben Israel ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
