Blaine writes: Kevin, I gave you some answers to your specific quotes from LDS authorities Brigham Y and others. I did not see what you saw as far as what they meant. What I did see was that they may not have been superb communicators, but the people who listened to them apparently knew what they were driving at, and found no fault whatsoever with what they said. I find no fault either. It is a matter of background understanding, mostly, and of course the spirit is operating there too.
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:27:19 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Why do I feel like you guys are not forthcoming with information and > maybe even intentional bending of the Truth? > Do you expect me to believe that the "General Authorities" have NO > AUTHORITY except when they say Thus saith the Lord? That the > "prophet" does not speak for god, but sometimes speculates and gives > his Opinion. > What if you disagree with his "Opinion"? > Care to tell your Bishop you disagree with his opinion? > > I have found a lot of detractors claim that anything spoken by a > latter-day prophet is absolutely correct and can be taken as > doctrine. I > personally disagree with such a supposition, and don't know any LDS > folks who think differently....though there may be some. > You do not know the current "prophet"? > Why do you disagree with him? > You have never heard the 14 fundamentals? > > When the GAs (General Authorities) say something, it can be > considered to be conjecture on their part, guessing, speculation > Can we foward this to your Bishop? > He will want to know. > The prophets "speculate" with your soul? > > JOD > "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to > say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial > kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the > children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the > privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as > they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." > Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95. > Discussing his discourses "I say now, when they are copied and > approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this > Bible . . . " Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264 > Did the "prophet" go through all the trouble of publishing his > discourses and not bother to check them? > Did he print and slap together these discourses, without caring > whether what is being transmitted to the members overseas was > correct? > If there were errors, why are there not any quotes from Brigham, to > that effect? > The JOD was approved and overseen by General Authorities and printed > in the Church printing office. > > WORDS OF PROPHETS ARE NOT JUST THERE OPINIONS, THEY ARE SCRIPTURE > FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHETS > By PRESIDENT Ezra Taft Benson > BYU Devotional Assembly > Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m. > Full speech - > http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm > "SIXTH: The Prophet Does Not Have to Say "Thus Saith the Lord" to > Give Us Scripture. Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. > They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not > obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the > Lord says of the Prophet, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words > and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4.) And > speaking of taking counsel from the Prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord > states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your > sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up > hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have > appointed." Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon > and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call > scripture." (JD 13:95.)" > > "ELEVENTH: The Two Groups Who Have The Greatest Difficulty in > Following The Prophet Are The Proud Who Are Learned And The Proud > Who Are Rich. The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when > he agrees with them, otherwise the prophet is just giving his > opinion--speaking as a man." > The LDS Church manual "Gospel Principles" clearly states that the > inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as > scripture by Latter-day Saints. "In addition to these 4 books of > scripture, the inspired works of our living prophets become > scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, church > publications and instructions to local priesthood leaders." - Gospel > Principles, p.51-52 > "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and > He will make me be god to you in His stead" Teachings of the Prophet > Joseph Smith, p.363 > > THROW OUT THE OLD TRUTHS, WE HAVE NEWER TRUTH! > The 1997 Priesthood Manual "Teachings of the Presidents of the > Church", contains prolific quotes from many early Mormon > publications. > If LDS leaders believe that the Old prophets are unreliable then > they need to stop quoting them, and admit that the "prophets" are > capable of leading ASTRAY! > �Do you see where this leads? If statements that a Mormon doesn�t > want to accept can be brushed off as private opinions without > authority, so can other statements. If declarations that make the > church look bad are mere opinions, so are statements that make the > church look good. If a General Authority said something that the > Mormon doesn�t believe and it was just that man�s opinion, then the > things that the Mormon does believe are also just someone�s opinion� > Robert McKay The Evangel, January/February 1996, pg. 8 > The Church and missionaries have no problem quoting this material > but when it is quoted in a negative light for the Church they > protest. You can not have it both ways. The fact is that the TRUTH > changes with every new "prophet" this is the natural outcome of "new > revelation" There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY in Mormonism. > If a "detractor" quotes it is to be dismissed, if the church quotes > it is to be trusted? > Is this your standard for TRUTH? > Jeremiah 17:5 �Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh > flesh his arm.� > > STOP THINKING AND GET IN LINE WITH THE LEADERS, NO CRITICIZING! IF > YOU DON'T LIKE IT LUMP IT! > "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the Children of Israel, and > he made me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be the > mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." - Joseph > Fielding Smith, Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363 > "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they point > the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, > it should mark the end of controversy" Ward teachers message, June > 1945 > "Have we not a right to make up our minds in relation to the things > recorded in the word of God, and speak about them, whether the > living oracles believe our views or not? We have not the right." - > Journal of Discourses 7:374-375. > "Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism" The > Teachings of Spencer W Kimball, 1982 > > Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > David Miller wrote: > > > Kevin wrote: > > > I am stating the OFFICIAL General Authority Position. > > > This is the ONLY position. According to LDS prophets > > > they are the only ones allowed to state LDS doctrine. > > > > I would like to hear from DaveH and Blaine about this. Has Kevin > been > > giving official General Authority Position? > > DAVEH: Not in my opinion. > > > It seems to me that Glenn > > would quote from the Journal of Discourses like Kevin does, and > the > > response was that this was not considered Mormon doctrine. > > DAVEH: Correct. Material found in the JofD may or may not be > official LDS doctrine. The JofD are simply an accumulation of > sermons (for the most part....there may be some that were not ever > sermons---I'm not sure) preached back in the days (19th > Century) before modern communicational methods. They were published > in England so the LDS folks there would have some idea of what the > LDS folks on this side of the pond were hearing. > > I have found a lot of detractors claim that anything spoken by a > latter-day prophet is absolutely correct and can be taken as > doctrine. I personally disagree with such a supposition, and don't > know any LDS folks who think differently....though there > may be some. > > There is a popular joke floating around (the LDS world) that says > Catholicism teaches the Pope is infallible, but no Catholics believe > it. And.......Mormon theology teaches the Prophet is fallible, but > no Mormons believe it. I don't know if any > TTers find that funny, but in Mormonism it is quite humorous. > > FTR........Let me say that LDS theology teaches that anything > revealed by God is 'scriptural'. But that is distinctly different > than saying it is canonical. We have 4 books that we consider canon > of scripture.....the "Standard Works". What if > found inside those works is considered doctrinal in the Church. That > does not mean that some LDS folks don't interpret some of what's > found there differently though. As in reading the Bible, there can > be several different ways passages can be > understood. > > When the GAs (General Authorities) say something, it can be > considered to be conjecture on their part, guessing, > speculation.......or......more than likely it is considered to be > material they/we believe is revealed to them from the Lord. Most > often, > that is what they preach in their sermons. One seldom hears GAs > speculating when they preach. But they may do so in other situations > or even in their writings. What most LDS folks consider to be the > most important words from one of our Church leaders > is when/if they say "thus saith the Lord". However, even using such > language does not make it canonical. For it to be canonized, their > words would have to be included in the Standard Works. > > I hope that clarifies it to your satisfaction, DavidM. And......I > hope what I've said is reasonably accurate. Blaine.....feel free to > correct me or add upon what I've said if you feel compelled. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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