[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>DAVEH: Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption on your part, Judy.
DAVEH wrote:
How could A&E have sinned, IF they did not know right from
wrong?Judy:
They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their
Creator
and they knew they had done wrong after the fact becauseDAVEH: Thank you......you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil.
guilt and shame were all over them.
When you told your child notDAVEH: It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded person for not understanding something?)
to do something for their own safety and well being and they did it
anyway - did you spank/punish them or did you rationalize that this
could not have been wrong because they did not comprehend your
whole mindset and find some way to make it good?
You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize that what the did (transgression) was good. From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God. What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation.
I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking outside the box, so to speak. Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively interesting question that has very important consequences of doctrine. To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions.......and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and infant baptism.
DaveH wrote:DAVEH: Like I said, Judy......the Bible never refers to Adam's Sin.....it is always Adam's Transgression.
But.....is there any place in the Bible where A&E's eating of the
forbidden
fruit is referred to as a sin, or......do the Bible authors simply refer
to it
as a transgression?Judy:
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression
of the law" (see 1 John 3:4) A&E had just one law in the garden which
was - don't eat of that fruit and they broke it which made them
transgressors.
Now I would wonder if God's command to Adam equates with law.....When a parent tells his child not to do something, is it really law? (And.....I don't know the answer to this, Judy.....I'm just thinking out loud.....which can be risky in this Forum!)
DAVEH:DAVEH: I'd say you are logically upside down on that, Judy.
Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at
James 4:17......."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it
not, to him it is sin." This begs the question, does it not did Adam &
Eve
knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruitJudy:
Yes they did. Obeying God is what they KNEW to do and this is always
GOOD.
Disobeying God is BAD because transgressing His law is sin.DAVEH: So......you are saying a small child who transgresses is sinning.....is that correct? If so, I respectfully disagree with you on that, Judy.
This is HIS definition and the only one that will count for eternity.
DAVEH:DAVEH: I don't know why you believe that IF you believe Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be our Redeemer. (I assume you do believe Jesus was foreordained well before A&E to be our Savior?)
As I pointed out previously, God placed the tree of knowledge of good andevil in the garden for a reason.
Judy:
Yes He was testing A&E to see if they would choose what is good.
DAVEH:DAVEH: Convoluted, Judy??? How so. IF Jesus was foreordained to save us from a scenario God was going to create.....how is it convoluted? No......convolution is incorrect......it was carefully and intricately planned, wouldn't you say?!?!
And IMHO, he not only knew Adam would partake of the FF, but he intended
him to do so. I assume you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our
Savior
and Redeemer before the foundation of the world, DavidM? (1Pt 1:10). Ifthat is so, then God had to place the FF in the presence of A&E in order
that
they could partake of it, as it was part of God's plan.Judy:
What kind of convoluted thinking is this?
God can not be tempted withDAVEH: Not at all. He didn't tempt man with evil. Adam's partaking of the FF was not evil. As I said, it was an important part of God's plan of salvation for us. Without A&E eating the FF.....there would be no salvation.
evil,
neither does He tempt any man. The above contradicts what has been
written
by the Spirit of God.
You are listening to the wrong voice DAVEH.DAVEH: The only thing I've quoted to you, Judy.....is Bible. If you disagree with my conclusion, that is OK. I just am very interested in knowing how you (Protestants in general) can accept Jesus' foreordination to be our Savior IF God really intended Adam not to partake of the FF.
DAVEH:DAVEH: Now you are modifying what I wrote so that it will appear to contradict what you believe. I agree....not all me will be resurrected to eternal life. The bad guys will also be physically resurrected, but will not share his eternal life and love. My point was that ALL will be physically resurrected, both good and bad. Some will be in heaven with God, others will not.
It seems to me that (original) sin was attributed to Adam's transgressionin post Biblical traditions of the apostate church. OS is something LDS
theology
considers erroneous doctrine. We believe men will be punished for their
own
sins, and not for Adam's transgression. That is why Christ's free gift
of the
(physical) resurrection is given to all men, whether good or bad.Judy:
Both ideas are false and unscriptural. Jesus would not have had to shed
his
blood and become a sacrifice for sin that was non-existent. Without
Adam's
fall this would not have been necessary. Yes Jesus died for ALL men
however,
ALL men will not be resurrected to eternal life in Him;
at the last dayDAVEH: OK Judy......let me ask again.... Do you believe ALL men will be physically resurrected.....either to eternal life or to eternal damnation?
there
will be sheep and there will be goats. Only those who have come to the
sacrifice and have deal with their sin issues God's way will be
resurrected
into eternal life.
DAVEH:DAVEH: You suggested God does not tempt man......Did you forget God created both trees?
Do you believe those who are not born again will be punished after this
life for the sins their parents may have committed? I ask that to try tounderstand how Adam's sins transfer to you. Or.....is it just Adam's
transgression that transfers, and not his other sins? To me it seems a
bit
strange that God would hold somebody responsible for another's sins,
but I'm looking at it through biased eyes.Judy:
Maybe it would be easier to understand DAVEH if you look at the two
trees in the garden as trees of wisdom. The tree of life being God's Word
and the other tree the word of the adversary. People who represent God
are to be oracles of God in this world. The alternative is to be an
oracle
for satan.
It may be more conducive to focus on 'righteousness' and howDAVEH: I suspect are many who are so self righteous, they tend to forget about reality. While I may not be as righteous as some, I do have to wonder why there are those who are so reluctant to consider why God provided us a Savior IF he did not intend for us to need to be Redeemed.
to receive this gift rather than what everyone thinks about everything.
Who do you choose to be an oracle for in this world?DAVEH: The Lord's servants.....his prophets.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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