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Blaine: My trip never happened, due to coming
down with a bad cold--both my wife and myself.
Kevin, your quote is very interesting.
Why would a Catholic Cardinal make such a statement? What point was he
trying to make? Are you saying that the Baptists had been around
since the time of Constantine? Constantine ruled during the 4th century
A.D., if I am not mistaken.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:20
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptists and
infant Baptism
Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of
Trent: "Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented
and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would
swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud
Opera, pp. 112, 113.)
1500
-1200
Equals what?
The History of the Baptists was written in Blood
Blaine Borrowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Blaine: Below I have copied a listing of four different
views on the origins of the Baptist Church. I find it
interesting. You are welcome to scrutinize it in light of Kevin's
assertions regarding origins. It appears to give a broad persective
unadorned by personal bias. I noted that the most prevalent view
supports beginnings in the early 1600's (17th century).
Views of Baptist Origins
1. Outgrowth of English Separatism
-- In this view, the Baptist faith originated from within the Separatist
movement, a movement which arose in Europe with the goal of breaking away
from the Church of England (which previously had broken away from the
Catholic Church, yet retained many of the trappings; those within the Church
of England who wished to remain a part of the Church and yet purify it
became known as "Puritans;" they were, in a sense, cousins to Separatists).
The influence of Anabaptists upon early Baptists is considered
minimal, according to this viewpoint. The earliest Baptist church is
traced back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth as pastor. The
group's embracing of "believer's baptism" became the defining moment which
led to the establishment of this first Baptist church. Shortly
thereafter, Smyth left the group, and Thomas Helwys took over the
leadership, leading the church back to England! in 1611. This view of Baptist origins has the most historical support and is the most widely
accepted view of Baptist origins. Representative
writers include William H. Whitsitt, Robert G. Torbet, Winthrop S. Hudson,
William G. McLoughlin and Robert A. Baker.
2. Influence of Anabaptists -- This
view holds that although Baptists originated from English Separatism, their
emergence owes much to the earlier Anabaptists. According to this
view, some early Baptist were influenced by some Anabaptists. The
Dutch Mennonites (Anabaptists), for example, shared some similarities with
General Baptists (believer's baptism, religious liberty, separation of
church and state, and Arminian views of salvation, predestination and
original sin). However, other than this, there were significant
differences between Anabaptists and Baptists (Anabaptists tended towards
extreme pacifism, communal sharing of earthly goods, and an unorthodox
optimistic view of human nature). Therefore, few Baptists hold to this theory of Baptist
origins. Representative writers include A.C. Underwood
and William R. Estep.
3. Continuation of Biblical
Teachings -- Some Baptists "seek to go back beyond the Anabaptist
movement to trace the continuity of Baptist forms of faith through the
centuries" (Leon McBeth, The Baptist Heritage, page 56). While
advocates of this view do not claim a succession of organized Baptist
churches (see below), they believe that Baptist faith and practice have
existed since the time of Christ. This
view has a goodly number of advocates, including a number of early Baptist
historians, many of whom were concerned with presenting the validity of
their faith (denomination) over and above that of other
denominations. Some representative writers include
Thomas Crosby (one of the earliest Baptist historians, he wrote in the early
1700s), A.H. Newman and David Benedict.
4. Succession of Baptist Churches --
This viewpoint goes beyond mere "continuation of biblical teachings" and and
declares that Baptist churches actually existed in an unbroken chain since
the time of Christ and John the Baptist. Commonly referred to as
"Landmarkism" or the "Trail of Blood" theory (J.M.Carroll wrote a book of
supposed Baptist history by this name), this view declares that those
churches which stood outside the influence of the Roman Catholic Church at
various times in church history were, in actuality although not in name,
Baptist churches. That which made them Baptists was their refusal to
accept infant baptism, or, said another way, their refusal to accept the
legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church as a Christian entity.
However, many of the historical churches which Landmarkists label as Baptist
churches were actually heretical in regards to doctrine. Nonet! heless, the "Landmarkist" view, which has little actual historical support,
remains popular among certain Baptists. The reason for its moderate
popularity (and, indeed, strong popularity among some rural Baptists in the
southern and western United States) stems (to some degree) from a
long-standing dislike (if not hate) of Catholics by many
Baptists. Representative writers of this viewpoint
include J.M Carroll, G.H. Orchard and J.M. Cramp. It should also be
noted that, interestingly enough, much of the Baptist history material thus
far posted on the Internet is Landmarkist in nature, indicating that, truth
aside, Landmarkists are a very vocal lot.
Top
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004
5:50 PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Baptists and
infant Baptism
Blaine: The Baptist Church had its
origins in the late 17th Century, according to this article, and it grew
out of English Congregationalism in the late 16th century, which rejected
Parish structure and infant baptism. This supports the documentation
of my previous post, which gave 1653 (17th century) as the date of
origination of the Baptist Chruch in Scotland.
The Origins and Development of Baptist Thought and
Practice
American Baptists, Southern Baptists and all the
scores of other Baptist bodies in the U.S. and around the world grew out
of a common tradition begun in the early 17th century. That tradition has emphasized the
Lordship and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, believers� baptism, the
competency of all believers to be in direct relationship with God and to
interpret Scripture, the influence of the Holy Spirit on individual lives
and ministries, and the need for autonomous congregations free from
government interference or hierarchical polity.
The origins of Baptist thought and practice can be
seen in the late 16th century in English Congregationalism, which rejected
the prevalent "parish" structure of church life (Church of England) where
everyone in a given community was a member of a neighborhood parish and
where children were baptized.
The reaction against that structure was articulated in the concept of
"the gathered church," in which membership was voluntary and based on
evidence of conversion, and where baptism (for the most part) was limited
to believers.
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