Blaine Borrowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Blaine: My trip never happened, due to coming down with a bad cold--both my wife and myself.Kevin, your quote is very interesting. Why would a Catholic Cardinal make such a statement? What point was he trying to make? Are you saying that the Baptists had been around since the time of Constantine? Constantine ruled during the 4th century A.D., if I am not mistaken.----- Original Message -----From: Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:20 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptists and infant BaptismCardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent: "Were it not that the baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)1500-1200Equals what?The History of the Baptists was written in BloodBlaine Borrowman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Blaine: Below I have copied a listing of four different views on the origins of the Baptist Church. I find it interesting. You are welcome to scrutinize it in light of Kevin's assertions regarding origins. It appears to give a broad persective unadorned by personal bias. I noted that the most prevalent view supports beginnings in the early 1600's (17th century).
1. Outgrowth of English Separatism -- In this view, the Baptist faith originated from within the Separatist movement, a movement which arose in Europe with the goal of breaking away from the Church of England (which previously had broken away from the Catholic Church, yet retained many of the trappings; those within the Church of England who wished to remain a part of the Church and yet purify it became known as "Puritans;" they were, in a sense, cousins to Separatists). The influence of Anabaptists upon early Baptists is considered minimal, according to this viewpoint. The earliest Baptist church is traced back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth as pastor. The group's embracing of "believer's baptism" became the defining moment which led to the establishment of this first Baptist church. Shortly thereafter, Smyth left the group, and Thomas Helwys took over the leadership, leading the church back to England! in 1611. This view of Baptist origins has the most historical support and is the most widely accepted view of Baptist origins. Representative writers include William H. Whitsitt, Robert G. Torbet, Winthrop S. Hudson, William G. McLoughlin and Robert A. Baker.
2. Influence of Anabaptists -- This view holds that although Baptists originated from English Separatism, their emergence owes much to the earlier Anabaptists. According to this view, some early Baptist were influenced by some Anabaptists. The Dutch Mennonites (Anabaptists), for example, shared some similarities with General Baptists (believer's baptism, religious liberty, separation of church and state, and Arminian views of salvation, predestination and original sin). However, other than this, there were significant differences between Anabaptists and Baptists (Anabaptists tended towards extreme pacifism, communal sharing of earthly goods, and an unorthodox optimistic view of human nature). Therefore, few Baptists hold to this theory of Baptist origins. Representative writers include A.C. Underwood and William R. Estep.
3. Continuation of Biblical Teachings -- Some Baptists "seek to go back beyond the Anabaptist movement to trace the continuity of Baptist forms of faith through the centuries" (Leon McBeth, The Baptist Heritage, page 56). While advocates of this view do not claim a succession of organized Baptist churches (see below), they believe that Baptist faith and practice have existed since the time of Christ. This view has a goodly number of advocates, including a number of early Baptist historians, many of whom were concerned with presenting the validity of their faith (denomination) over and above that of other denominations. Some representative writers include Thomas Crosby (one of the earliest Baptist historians, he wrote in the early 1700s), A.H. Newman and David Benedict.
4. Succession of Baptist Churches -- This viewpoint goes beyond mere "continuation of biblical teachings" and and declares that Baptist churches actually existed in an unbroken chain since the time of Christ and John the Baptist. Commonly referred to as "Landmarkism" or the "Trail of Blood" theory (J.M.Carroll wrote a book of supposed Baptist history by this name), this view declares that those churches which stood outside the influence of the Roman Catholic Church at various times in church history were, in actuality although not in name, Baptist churches. That which made them Baptists was their refusal to accept infant baptism, or, said another way, their refusal to accept the legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church as a Christian entity. However, many of the historical churches which Landmarkists label as Baptist churches were actually heretical in regards to doctrine. Nonet! heless, the "Landmarkist" view, which has little actual historical support, remains popular among certain Baptists. The reason for its moderate popularity (and, indeed, strong popularity among some rural Baptists in the southern and western United States) stems (to some degree) from a long-standing dislike (if not hate) of Catholics by many Baptists. Representative writers of this viewpoint include J.M Carroll, G.H. Orchard and J.M. Cramp. It should also be noted that, interestingly enough, much of the Baptist history material thus far posted on the Internet is Landmarkist in nature, indicating that, truth aside, Landmarkists are a very vocal lot.
----- Original Message -----From: Blaine BorrowmanTo: TTSent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 5:50 PMSubject: [TruthTalk] Baptists and infant Baptism
Blaine: The Baptist Church had its origins in the late 17th Century, according to this article, and it grew out of English Congregationalism in the late 16th century, which rejected Parish structure and infant baptism. This supports the documentation of my previous post, which gave 1653 (17th century) as the date of origination of the Baptist Chruch in Scotland.
The Origins and Development of Baptist Thought and Practice
American Baptists, Southern Baptists and all the scores of other Baptist bodies in the U.S. and around the world grew out of a common tradition begun in the early 17th century. That tradition has emphasized the Lordship and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, believers� baptism, the competency of all believers to be in direct relationship with God and to interpret Scripture, the influence of the Holy Spirit on individual lives and ministries, and the need for autonomous congregations free from government interference or hierarchical polity.
The origins of Baptist thought and practice can be seen in the late 16th century in English Congregationalism, which rejected the prevalent "parish" structure of church life (Church of England) where everyone in a given community was a member of a neighborhood parish and where children were baptized.
The reaction against that structure was articulated in the concept of "the gathered church," in which membership was voluntary and based on evidence of conversion, and where baptism (for the most part) was limited to believers.
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