----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 8:27
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the Meaning
of God's Word(s)?
From: "Wm. Taylor" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Lance, I
think your point was missed. I think that is because
jt
missed the main point you were making (you know, the one the rest of us
got).
jt: Kevin did you get this point?
Do you mind if I jump in now? I am going to assume you don't mind and go
ahead and get involved with this one because I see the
distinction as too important to miss.
Judy writes
However, you and [Bill] are unified over some
extra Biblical concept that negates the judgment of God and you have yet
to give any scriptural grounds for such a belief.
judyt
Judy, this is just simply untrue. I have gone farther in my exegesis of
Scripture than anyone one on this forum (since I have been here). I just do not throw verses around by the buckets full like you
and some others do.
jt: You should spend more time meditating in God's
Word Bill, it would give you a lot of peace (see Psalm 119:165)
I have exegete Luke 2.52, a great little passage that gets to the heart
of Christ's atoning work.
jt: How does the boy Jesus growing into manhood get
to the heart of Christ's atoning work?
I have exegete Philippians 2.5-11, another clear declaration of the
personhood of Christ. I have gone over the Hebrew understanding of oneness. I
have written extensively on the biblical use of go'el. I have written on
Romans 5.12ff. I have given a brief commentary on Psalms 22. I have written on
the relationship between indicatives and imperatives in Scripture. I have
exegete Romans 7.7-13. I can go on.
jt: In all of these scriptures you claim to
have exegeted Bill, you use them to prove a doctrine you have already
fleshed out but you do not approach God's Word in humility
submitting your natural reason and asking His Spirit for understanding. The
end result is that the narrow way becomes a broad way same as with M
Scott Peck, different methods but the end result is the
same.
The problem is not that we have failed to give any scriptural grounds for
such beliefs. The problem is that we understand Scripture to mean something
different in regards to certain points than what you understand it to mean.
There, I underlined it, made it bold, and italicized parts of it. That is
because this is the main point and I don't want you to miss it and get
side-tracked onto something else.
Judy it is not that you are the only one among us who actually reads
Scripture to draw meaning from it. I do too. So does Lance. Lance is saying
that something takes place between the reading of God's words and the
interpreting of them, the drawing forth of meaning from those same words. If
the Bible did not need to be interpreted, if it did that part for us, then we
would all agree on its meaning (And don't get side-tracked here either. I am
talking about true believers, people with the Holy Spirit indwelling them -- I
am talking about you and me and Lance and all true believers).
jt: The reason we don't all agree is because God
Himself closes His book to some and reveals it to others. (The Mormons know
about that scripture in Isaiah but they mistakenly believe Joseph Smith was
given the key) God is not mocked and whatsoever a man sows that is what
he is going to reap. God is Spirit and our walk is a spiritual walk;
there are also
a lot of religious spirits out there
sowing complicated doctrines that will never lead God's people into
righteousness and holiness causing them to try to get to heaven some other
way.
You want to know what it means.
jt: No I have peace about what it means and the
ministry of the Holy Spirit will give me understanding where it is lacking as
I am faithful to study (which BTW I need to go do right now). I don't need to
check things out with my local theologian.
I want to know what it means. Lance wants to know what it means. Yet
there is an interpretive task involved for each one of us, before any one of
us can say what it "means." At that point of saying what it means, it becomes
at best an approximation of Truth, maybe a very close approximation but an
approximation nonetheless.
jt: Wow! I'm sure glad Jesus was not that confused
when he confronted the adversary in the wilderness. He would never have been
able to say "It is written" "It is written" "It is written" and Bill this is
the example he left for us to follow.
It is this not because God's word is lacking, or because we do not have
the Holy Spirit, it is this because we are finite. We are limited. We bring
everything we are everytime we go to the text, whether it be the text of
Scripture, or the text that someone else has written about Scripture. Hence,
since we are limited, finite, human beings, we may not always agree on what
the Scriptures mean. We can only say, "this is what I understand it to
mean."
jt: So being a finite being I can not overcome the
powers of darkness by using the sword of the spirit because in my finiteness I
can not know what it means? Lord have mercy!!
Judy, we all have extra-biblical concepts that we bring with us to the
text. It's called being human. Please, please do not get side-tracked here,
because if you do, it will mean that you have missed the main point once
again.
jt: Bill I think I've about given up on the "main
point" There are too many points and your system is way to complicated. Also
you have a flawed humanistic Jesus and the way you and Lance speak of the
atonement totally negates God's judgment which is the other side of His
nature. He didn't have a change of personality between Malachi and
Matthew.
From: Judy Taylor
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 12:47 PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the
Meaning of God's Word(s)?
From: "Lance Muir" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NOT
NECESSARILY OURS. Of course there's a meaning.
If the Meaning of God's
Word(s) were apprehended by all
True Believers then...see my earlier posts
concerning Unity,
Division, Spot & Blemish, and on and on..
jt: The Church Jesus comes for will be unified. They will be
unified
around His Word; they will have been cleansed by
His Word without
accompanying spot and or blemish etc.
Speaking of spot/blemish didn't you
say "whatever that
means?" I showed you in God's Word what it means
and
you don't accept that. So does this mean IYO I am not a
True
Believer?
Now, as an example ask Bill if he understood what my
meaning was in
my last couple of posts to you. If he did
and you didn't...Case
closed..right?
jt: I don't need to ask Bill as he keeps cheering you on like
half
time at a ball game. However, you and he are unified
over some extra
Biblical concept that negates the judgment
of God and you have yet to give
any scriptural grounds for
such a belief. judyt
From: Judy Taylor
From: "Lance Muir" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judy:
"This is what my KJV says, Lance" Surely on this occasion
and numerous
others you've come to see that the differences manifested
on TT HAVE NOT
TO DO WITH WHAT IS SAID BUT OVER WHAT
IS MEANT. I know from others posts
from you Judy, that you're
aware of this distinction. Lance
jt: Are you telling me that the Word of God does not mean what it
says?
If this is what you are saying then "No, I don't have this
distinction and
the differences manifested on TT make no difference to me.
I believe
God says what He means and He means what He says.
judyt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He comes
to it? Just like TT, just like your local "garden variety"
Baptist,
Lutheran, Pentecostal, Charismatic etc. Church. SOME
IN THEM WILL be
without spot or blemish (whatever that actually means).
There is no "grand
transformation" about to take place (either to
TT or to the Churches).
Lance
This is what my KJV says Lance
"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it that he might
sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, that
he
might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or
wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:26,27
Sounds to me like the issue is sanctification/holiness
Jesus was a
lamb without blemish and without spot (1 Peter 1:19)
Contrast Him with actual spots....
"These are wells without water,
clouds that are carried with a tempest
to whom the mist of darkness is
reserved for ever. For when they speak
great swelling words of vanity, they
allure through the lusts of the flesh
through much wantonness, those that
were clean escaped from them
who live in error. While they promise them
liberty, they themselves
are the servants of corruption; for of whom a man
is overcome, of the
same is he brought in bondage for if after they have
escaped the
pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and
Savior
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
latter
end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better
for
them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they
have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"
(2
Peter 2:17-20)
"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts;
and
their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in
admiration because of advantage. " (Jude
16)
