Lance Muir wrote:
Great post! Yes, I believe it to be
possible. If I didn't I'd use my fingers to type only to myself. Wait a
sec, maybe that's what some of us are actually doing. Ya think?
DAVEH: Most everybody (nonM)I've chatted with on TT has felt the need
to save me from Mormonism. I have repeatedly said that I did not come
to TT to change, and many seem to have disbelieved my intentions and
apparently take offense that I am so stubbornly unwilling to change the
way I perceive and understand the Bible. Yet I, looking from the other
side of the fence, see those same TTers being equally stubborn in their
inherited Bible beliefs. There are some deeply rooted Protestant ideas
that simply cannot be compromised for some reason, which I find
curious. (Again.....that is why I tend to categorize most TTers as
being Protestants despite some protesting of such.) After being in TT
for well over 4 years now, I have seen enough petty squabbles amongst
TTers who go to great lengths to explain their understanding of things
found in the Bible, yet I think few change their views. So, why be
hypocritical about it.....why not just say I'm not here to change and
then enjoy TT for what it is. Yet it seems I am one of the few who
thinks this way. Everybody else apparently supposes they are going to
be able to persuade the others to think like them.......and, when it
doesn't happen that way.....everybody gets their noses bent out of
shape. At least that's the way I see it, Lance.
Lance
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
March 30, 2004 03:42
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:Dialogue with Mormons
Lance Muir wrote:
Attention all Mormon
contributors: You may reframe this query in better suited words if you
wish: Do you (M) believe all others (nonM) to be capable of engaging
you(M) in any genuine dialogue?
DAVEH: Yes. But my experience in TT has shown me that for every one
who is willing to do so, there are many, many more who do not want to
do so.
If you believe that we (nonM)
are in the "dark" how can anything we say be taken seriously by
yourselves?
DAVEH: Even though you (nonM) or me (M) may be wrong on any given
belief, I don't think that necessarily means a meaningful/serious
discussion cannot be had about such even IF one or both parties are in
error.
For instance, I believe baptism is a very important aspect of
salvation, and feel that those of you (nonM) who do not share this
belief are in error. However, I do want to know why you believe as you
do because as I see it.....the Bible is pretty firm about teaching the
necessity of baptism and its relationship to salvation. It is my
opinion that those who do not see the necessity of baptism (being
needed for salvation) have simply inherited this belief based on
Protestant doctrines that were derived due to a repugnance to RCC
dogma. Had it not been for the RCC insistence on baptism for
salvation, I believe Protestants would not have been so reluctant to
understand the Bible's comments about baptism the way they do.
It is such doctrinal leanings that persuade me to think that most
TTers are really Protestants despite their denial. Though they may not
think they are protesting anything, it is the adoption of a belief
system that is based on Protesters that draws me to think they qualify
as Protestants. Does that make sense, Lance?
I think what I've said above pretty much explains my interest in
TT. As you may know, I am not here to learn/find truth, but rather my
interest here is in learning about what Protestants believe and why
they believe it because some of those beliefs are in such contrast to
my own. Yet we share the same Bible. I realize that I benefit from
extra Biblical knowledge, but I try to make allowance for that and try
to focus on what the Bible says and infers.
Another example.....I've often times mentioned baptism for the dead
as Paul referred to in 1 Cor 15:29. I have not this to convince any
TTers that baptism for the dead is doctrinally correct because it is in
the Bible. Rather I find the fact that there were Primitive Christians
practicing such to be strong evidence that some Christians actually
believed that baptism was necessary for salvation. Yet this seems to
be conveniently overlooked/ignored by many Protestants today. Instead
they insist that BFTD is reprehensible and not doctrinally correct
simply because it is mentioned in the Bible. For some reason, they
seem to not be able to see the bigger picture. To me this is
fascinating.
IF, IN FACT YOU'RE WRONG HOW
THEN CAN THIS BE SHOWN TO YOU?
DAVEH: Why do you feel so compelled to show me that I am wrong,
Lance? Can we not have a meaningful discussion about what is said in
the Bible, why it was said, and what implications are resultant EVEN IF
they do not agree with our personal beliefs? Do you have to proof me
wrong to make the discussion meaningful???
I once had an 18 month
conversation on this very point which lead inexhorably to the only
possible conclusion...
DAVEH: That you are/were right......Is that your conclusion? Doesn't
everybody think that way, most of the time? Is there anybody wandering
around TT thinking to themselves that their beliefs are all screwed up
and wrong and that they will find somebody in TT that will set them
straight? No?.....I suspect it is the other way around. Everybody
here wants to convince the other guy that his beliefs are all wrong and
that they should change to conform to their correct understanding.
>From what I see, that's a pretty rare event here.
Personally, I think my approach is the best. I'm not here to
change. I'm here to learn. To me, genuine
dialogue is a two way street. And, I tire quickly of those
who think TT should only be a one way street. So Lance, if you don't
think we can have a meaningful discussion UNLESS you can change me,
then save your typing fingers for the guy who comes to TT wanting to
change to believe as you do. On the other hand, IF you want to learn
what I believe and why......or......IF you want to share with me your
beliefs and why you believe such.....I truly believe we can have a
meaningful exchange.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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