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Dave, my brother, be at peace. I've no such
grandiose agenda. Read my posts today ala J&L.. However, it ought never to
be the case that we denigrate another's convictions, or commitment to them.Some
things are what we believe them to be and some are not. Lance
Sent: March 30, 2004 09:45
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:Dialogue with
Mormons
Lance Muir wrote:
Great post! Yes, I believe it to be possible.
If I didn't I'd use my fingers to type only to myself. Wait a sec, maybe
that's what some of us are actually doing. Ya
think? DAVEH: Most everybody (nonM)I've chatted
with on TT has felt the need to save me from Mormonism. I have
repeatedly said that I did not come to TT to change, and many seem to have
disbelieved my intentions and apparently take offense that I am so stubbornly
unwilling to change the way I perceive and understand the Bible. Yet I,
looking from the other side of the fence, see those same TTers being equally
stubborn in their inherited Bible beliefs. There are some deeply rooted
Protestant ideas that simply cannot be compromised for some reason, which I
find curious. (Again.....that is why I tend to categorize most TTers as
being Protestants despite some protesting of such.) After being in
TT for well over 4 years now, I have seen enough petty squabbles amongst TTers
who go to great lengths to explain their understanding of things found in the
Bible, yet I think few change their views. So, why be hypocritical about
it.....why not just say I'm not here to change and then enjoy TT for what it
is. Yet it seems I am one of the few who thinks this way.
Everybody else apparently supposes they are going to be able to persuade the
others to think like them.......and, when it doesn't happen that
way.....everybody gets their noses bent out of shape. At least that's
the way I see it, Lance.
Lance
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
March 30, 2004 03:42
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:Dialogue with Mormons
Lance Muir wrote:
Attention all Mormon contributors: You may
reframe this query in better suited words if you wish: Do you (M)
believe all others (nonM) to be capable of engaging you(M) in any
genuine dialogue? DAVEH: Yes. But my
experience in TT has shown me that for every one who is willing to do so,
there are many, many more who do not want to do so.
If you believe that we (nonM) are in the
"dark" how can anything we say be taken seriously by
yourselves? DAVEH: Even though you (nonM)
or me (M) may be wrong on any given belief, I don't think that necessarily
means a meaningful/serious discussion cannot be had about such even IF one
or both parties are in error.
For
instance, I believe baptism is a very important aspect of salvation, and
feel that those of you (nonM) who do not share this belief are in
error. However, I do want to know why you believe as you do because
as I see it.....the Bible is pretty firm about teaching the necessity of
baptism and its relationship to salvation. It is my opinion that
those who do not see the necessity of baptism (being needed for salvation)
have simply inherited this belief based on Protestant doctrines that were
derived due to a repugnance to RCC dogma. Had it not been for
the RCC insistence on baptism for salvation, I believe Protestants would
not have been so reluctant to understand the Bible's comments about
baptism the way they do.
It is such
doctrinal leanings that persuade me to think that most TTers are really
Protestants despite their denial. Though they may not think they are
protesting anything, it is the adoption of a belief system that is based
on Protesters that draws me to think they qualify as Protestants.
Does that make sense, Lance?
I think what I've
said above pretty much explains my interest in TT. As you may know,
I am not here to learn/find truth, but rather my interest here is in
learning about what Protestants believe and why they believe it because
some of those beliefs are in such contrast to my own. Yet we
share the same Bible. I realize that I benefit from extra Biblical
knowledge, but I try to make allowance for that and try to focus on what
the Bible says and infers.
Another
example.....I've often times mentioned baptism for the dead as Paul
referred to in 1 Cor 15:29. I have not this to convince any TTers
that baptism for the dead is doctrinally correct because it is in the
Bible. Rather I find the fact that there were Primitive Christians
practicing such to be strong evidence that some Christians actually
believed that baptism was necessary for salvation. Yet this seems to
be conveniently overlooked/ignored by many Protestants today.
Instead they insist that BFTD is reprehensible and not doctrinally correct
simply because it is mentioned in the Bible. For some reason, they
seem to not be able to see the bigger picture. To me this is
fascinating.
IF, IN FACT YOU'RE WRONG HOW THEN CAN THIS
BE SHOWN TO YOU? DAVEH: Why do you feel so
compelled to show me that I am wrong, Lance? Can we not have a
meaningful discussion about what is said in the Bible, why it was said,
and what implications are resultant EVEN IF they do not agree with our
personal beliefs? Do you have to proof me wrong to make the
discussion meaningful???
I once had an 18 month conversation on this
very point which lead inexhorably to the only possible
conclusion... DAVEH: That you are/were
right......Is that your conclusion? Doesn't everybody think
that way, most of the time? Is there anybody wandering around TT
thinking to themselves that their beliefs are all screwed up and wrong and
that they will find somebody in TT that will set them straight?
No?.....I suspect it is the other way around. Everybody here wants
to convince the other guy that his beliefs are all wrong and that they
should change to conform to their correct understanding. >From
what I see, that's a pretty rare event here.
Personally, I think my approach is the best. I'm not here to
change. I'm here to learn. To me, genuine dialogue is a two way street. And, I tire
quickly of those who think TT should only be a one way street. So Lance,
if you don't think we can have a meaningful discussion UNLESS you can
change me, then save your typing fingers for the guy who comes to TT
wanting to change to believe as you do. On the other hand, IF you
want to learn what I believe and why......or......IF you want to share
with me your beliefs and why you believe such.....I truly believe we can
have a meaningful exchange.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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