Jensen, John T wrote: 'church' is not so much a translation as a
calque - substitution of one word for another. 'ecclesia' (or 'ekklesia'
if you like it in Greek-in-Roman-letters) is not 'community.' It is the
Greek word that translated the Hebrew 'qahal' - and is the fulfilment of the
nation of Israel.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 11:41
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] The One True
Church.....?
Jensen, John T wrote: [more snip]
Are you then saying you believe in an IT? A Church apart from
the
people.
[jj] Not at all. Actually, I am trying to be tactful with you Prots
- I
would normally have referred to the Church as 'she' - the Bride
of
Christ, you see?
jt: Not everyone considers themselves a Prot John -
You mean
you don't call your church 'Mother?'
When you say the Church guides you...what are you referring
to?
To the rules and regulations of the Catholic Church guiding you?
[jj] Well, in a small way, yes. Those 'rules and regulations' are
made
by people, you know. But 'The Church' is something more than
just a lot
of people. It - she! - is Christ's body, His bride, his
Kingdom. He
will not let her (ok, go whole hog, jj!) fail, you
see. He guides her
into all truth. And that guidance is
infallible.
jt: Hasn't been so hot so far with the scandals sof
the past and the
present ongoing problem between priests and young
boys.
I guess everything someone sees the word "church" (mistranslation)
he
automatically thinks it is referring to the Roman Catholic Church?
[jj] Only if they are (Roman) Catholics.
[jj] Mistranslation? Yes - if by 'church' you mean some sort of
human
organisation. The 'ecclesia' - the 'qahal' - is Israel, the
people of
God, the Kingdom of David, the promise of all the prophets and
that
which our Lord came into the world to call men into.
jt: I understand the called out ones to be God's ppl
in every age.
Under the Old Covenant they were Israel and under the
New Covenant
they are those who belong to Jesus, hear His voice,
and follow Him.
[jj] I rather think our Lord had something a bit more concrete and
even
this-worldly (though not of it) when He talked about 'My Church' - as
did St Paul when He talked about the Church being the pillar and
foundation of truth.
Jesus said on the truth that He rose from the dead He would
build
(edify) His spiritual community. (Church is a mistranslation
of
ekklesia.)
[jj] 'church' is not so much a translation as a calque - substitution
of
one word for another. 'ecclesia' (or 'ekklesia' if you like it
in
Greek-in-Roman-letters) is not 'community.' It is the Greek word
that
translated the Hebrew 'qahal' - and is the fulfilment of the nation
of
Israel.
[jj] And that 'nation' was very visible!
jt: The Church should be visible by the light/glory
of Christ
shining through her; but Jesus said His Kingdom does
nto come
by observation. What does this
mean?
If so, I'm not sure what candidate even exists for the office of the
ONE Church of Christ than the ... Shock, horror! ...
Roman Catholic
Church.
jt: Jesus said who the ONE Church is - they are the
ones who do the
will of the Father in heaven and this kinds of trims
the list don't you
think?
Scripture does not state this. It is simply something that was
brought
about by mere men. (Come ye out from among them...saith the
Lord.)
[jj] Ah, well, we are now back in question-begging territory.
The
question is whether the RCC is indeed something that was brought
about
by mere men, or something that was brought about by God acting
through
men in fulfilment of His plan.
jt: I see the Canon and translations of scripture as
being brought about
by God acting through men to fulfill His plan; the
Church is another
matter. The RCC is a rich political structure and I
don't think politics
and/or a lot of wealth fit. Remember what Jesus
said about how hard
it is for a rich man to make it into
heaven?
judyt
