do not flee as a moderating voice such as your own is needed.
My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging
me
too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives --
Is
that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me,
he
does not care about us, he cares only about himself.
I have been
accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called
into
question.
I am tired of hearing Christians condemning
Christians.
I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in
this discussion
would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we
can love each
other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of
that -- but
Christians can do this, you know.
May I say something to
you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and
Judy as well. I do not like
the quickness with which you condemn your
brothers and sisters.
David, please do not be so rude.
Bill
----- Original Message
-----
From: "David Miller" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent:
Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> Bill wrote:
> > I bring my knowledge of these
truths from the
> > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of
> > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that.
>
>
Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself
upon
the
> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should
try to let the
> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not
disagree with the
theology
> you bring, but when it blinds you to
other issues being brought forth,
> that is troublesome to me.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome
> > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek
> >
words. I ask only that you be honest enough
> > to consider what you
are bringing with you
> > when you go to the same text and begin
> > to translate.
>
> I think I am well aware of what I
bring with me, but if not, it seems
> like nobody will step up to the
plate and tell me about it. Seems like
> too many think it too
rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about
> this and why he is
wrong.
>
> Look, you never addressed my main question. I
never objected to word
> order at all, but you gave a long lecture about
how word order does not
> matter. Fine. No problem
there. My problem was with how you
perceived
> "pas" to be
modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed
> in the
Greek Bible that adjectives always agree in case, gender, and
> number
with the words they modify. So if this word was being used to
>
modify "oidamen" as you say, it should be plural instead of singular.
>
In other words, the word would have been rendered "pantes" instead of
>
"pas." Therefore, I reject your translation on this basis. If you
say
> fine, and leave it at that, then I guess life goes on.
However, I
think
> a truly honest discussion would consider this
point and attempt to help
> me understand my error, or you would
recognize that you have brought
too
> much of your theology into play
here and are missing the aspect that
> John is bringing out here, and
that is how Christ becomes incarnated
> within us, how we partake of his
divine nature, and how it finds
> _expression_ through us. We truly
receive power to become sons of God,
as
> John mentions in his
gospel.
>
> I also asked you to show some passages which
use "pas" as a modifier in
> the way that you suggest, but your response
offered none. This is a
> very common word, used more than 1200
times. I have checked many and I
> can't find any. I can
only assume from your silence that you have
never
> seen it
either. I have brought to you other passages that have used
>
"pas" in connection "ho" and seems to translate it well as
"whosoever."
> No comment from you about that.
>
>
In this last post, you seem to want to force "pas" as a modifier and
do
> not realize that adjectives often stand alone. Mounce terms
this being
> either "adjectivally" or "substantivally." Obviously
I take the
> position that "pas" is used substantivally here, but you
seem to see no
> option for that.
>
> I presented the
interlinears, hoping for you to provide your own, and
> perhaps from
there lead to a translation that is appreciative of the
> words used in
the text. I was a little confused by your reference to
>
"transliteration" when it seemed that you perhaps meant the
interlinear
> translation. You seemed to agree with the
interlinears I provided, yet
> your translation strays very far away
from it. You claim liberty to do
> this because a transliteration
is not a translation. Ok. How about
> then providing me with
other Greek scholars fluent in Greek who would
> translate this passage
as you have. I have searched dozens of
> translations and I can't
find one. Many do try and mangle this verse
to
> keep it from
saying what it obviously says. Their theology, which is
> similar
to yours, is obviously being pushed into their translations,
yet
>
none of them are so bold as to translate this first phrase as speaking
>
about Christ rather than all of us who are born of God through faith
in
> Christ.
>
> You may be tired of this whole thing and
if so, no big deal. I'm ready
> to move on too, but if we leave it
at this, I must admit to being a
> little dissatisfied. At the
very least, you should say something about
> how an adjective in the
singular can be used to modify a word that is
> plural. Why use
"pas" instead of "pantes"?
>
> I don't know if you have Mounce's
grammar, "Basics of Biblical Greek."
> I decided to pull it off my shelf
and take a look because you had
> mentioned that you had met Mounce and
appreciated him. Anyway, in
> chapter 9 on adjectives, Mounce says
in 9.8, "An adjective has case,
> number, and gender, and will always
have the same case, number, and
> gender as the noun it modifies."
I realize that this is kind of being
> technical with one authority
here, but if what Mounce says is true, on
> what basis do you claim that
"pas" in 1 John 5:18 modifies "oidamen"?
> Do you think Mounce is wrong,
or is there some other explanation?
> "Oidamen" is plural while "pas" is
singular. If you could at least
> consider this one important
point, I would appreciate it.
>
> Peace be with you.
>
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
>
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org>
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