RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

ShieldsFamily Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:52:05 -0700

BTW, my Beloved and I are having a most blessed and wonderful time in Paducah, KY. I wish you all could realize how wonderful quilts/quilting/quilt art really is. Only here can you get a grasp of it. My Sweetie is designing a wonderful quilt himself that only an ophthalmologist could love (he quilts, too, from time to time), and we are buying way too many fabrics. Must hit the sack and rest up for another exhausting day in Quilt City’s annual convention for fabricaholics. Quilt masterpieces are here from Japan, France, Turkey, and everywhere. Some are like paintings, some are indescribable. LOVE, Izzy. PS Only in heaven will we ever have hope of enough time for completing all of our UFO’s (unfinished fabric objects.)

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

Bill, Thank you for loving us enough to expose yourself by telling us what you believe. That is how we love one another. Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

When I say "us all" I mean us all -- all humanity, not just all Christians.

I think, David, that rather try to start at the end, so to speak, and work back from there, I will attempt to start somewhere closer to the beginning. I will try to touch upon some of your questions along the way and probably stretch this out over several posts.

I'll tell you in a nutshell what has happened to me that has yet to happen to you. I have apprehended the effects of the Enlightenment upon my thoughts and have since shifted my thinking away from the presuppositions of that movement. You have yet to do either. And that is it in a nutshell. Now you will have to decide if I am on to something and if so if it is even relevant. You with your scientific background probably have more to gain than any of us in the paradigm shift to which I refer. You also being a scientist will have the greatest difficulty making that transition, because you more than any of us are very much a product of the Enlightenment project.

I see very clearly a cause/effect disposition coming across in your posts. You are not alone here. I read this in Judy, Kevin, Terry, and others. This is not an insult; it is an observation. Let me give you some examples of what I mean. You may not have said this in so many words, but it is what I gather from the things you say: You confess your sins, then God forgives you. You place your faith in Jesus Christ, then he saves you. You believe in Jesus Christ, then you are in Jesus Christ. You work out your salvation in fear and trembling, then God receives you. Cause and effect. Cause and effect. Cause and effect.

Implicit in each of these statements is a condition which must be worked out on your end before it can/will be reciprocated from God's end. If you do not repent, then you will go to hell. If you do not place your faith in Jesus Christ, he cannot save you. If you do not live in obedience, you will lose your salvation. Stated another way, you can be saved only if you believe in Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, walk in obedience, and persevere to the end. All these conditions must be met before you can actually be saved.

David, I know that you can blast me now with gobs of verses which could seem to reinforce your views. You may even do this. Others may do it also. Some may not even be able to keep themselves from doing it. I know what these verses are. I've read them hundreds of times. I used to read them like you do. I do not read them that way any longer. Why?

I have discovered a new hermeneutic. Not new in that I'm the first to use it, but new in that it is very old, much older than the Enlightenment. Torrance has helped me hear. Polanyi has helped me here. Kruger and Newbigin and Deddo have helped me here. Here's what I see: Jesus is the reason I believe. Truth is truth whether I believe it or not. My believing it does not cause it to be true. Faith is my response to the truth of the Gospel. Repentance is my response to the truth of the Gospel. Obedience is my response to the truth of the Gospel. Worship is my response to the truth of the Gospel. Confession is my response to the truth of the Gospel. My love for God and others is my response to the truth of the Gospel. Jesus Christ is the truth of the Gospel! There is no cause and effect here. He is the reason I believe. He is the reason I am obedient. He is the reason that I love, that I repent, that I persevere. My response to Jesus Christ does not change the truthfulness of who he is, of what he has accomplished on my behalf, on our behalf, on behalf of us all. My response does not change the truth of the Gospel. The Gospel tells me who Jesus Christ is; it tells me who I am, and it calls me to repent accordingly. My response does not condition Jesus Christ, it flows from who he is.

When you insinuate that I have diminished faith or repentance, or the power of sin and death, or human depravity, David, you simply misunderstand me. These things are all real, profoundly real, in my thinking. I just do not draw logico-causal connections between them. No one can reject Jesus Christ and live for long without sin and death and depravity devouring them. These things are defeated in Christ: this is the truth. BUT if we refuse him, we step right into their lies. We empower their impoverishment. We become the substance upon which they feed. We dare not believe the lie! Repentance is absolutely in order here. But it is not to gain God's forgiveness. It is to step back into the truth of our existence in Jesus Christ! These things will kill us if we choose to live in their lies. Oh but there is such wonderful news! When we humans place our faith in Jesus Christ God sends his Spirit into our being and secures us from within; this he does that we might know that we are not without him. Never, ever again will we be without him. Christ in us, the hope of Glory.

Bill

PS -- Calvin remained remarkably unscathed by the early stages of the Age of Reason. He lived prior to the Enlightenment. The problem is we do not. In order to read Calvin and actually find Calvin in the Calvin we read, we have to shed ourselves the best we can of Enlightenment predispositions. If we do not, we will end up doing to him the same thing his successors did. We will misunderstand him, then distort his views beyond recognition.

----- Original Message -----

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:04 AM

Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

> Bill wrote:
> > I believe this passage does mean that all receive
> > the gift of life and that this gift is automatically
> > afforded to us all whether or not we put our trust
> > and faith in Christ.
>
> Wow! Bill, you sure do know how to shock me. I'm listening, but I'm on
> the edge of my seat! This is fun...
>
> Bill wrote:
> > The Scriptures speak of two deaths. The first death
> > is defeated in Christ's resurrection.
>
> Wait a minute... everyone partakes of the first death. Everyone.
> Christ did not eliminate this from the destiny of men, did he? The
> first death is defeated in Christ's resurrection, I agree, but that
> defeat is by undoing the first death through resurrection, not by
> preventing the death. We all partake of the first death, but because of
> Christ, some of us will escape the second death. Yes? No?
>
> Bill wrote:
> > We all share in the victory of Christ's victory over
> > sin, death, and the devil.
>
> By the phrase "we all," do you mean all men everywhere, including the
> Ted Bundy's and Charles Manson's and Jeffery Dahmer's of the world?
>
> When I read you say that we share in Christ's victory over sin, that
> means to me that we will walk as he walked in regards to sin and no
> longer continue to sin. When I read you to say that we share in
> Christ's victory over death, I read that to mean that we will defeat
> death in the same way, through the resurrection. When I read you to say
> that we all share in Christ's victory over the devil, that means that we
> will resist him as Christ did, and escape his power and wiling ways.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > We all live because Christ is the justification
> > of life. The first death is therefore not the problem.
> > We all share in Christ's resurrection. We are all
> > called to live this life in faithful obedience to him
> > who gave it to us.
>
> Again, by "we all," do you mean all of mankind, or do you mean those who
> have been called of God, all the elect?
>
> Bill wrote:
> > How then does this view differ from "universalism"?
> > Keep in mind the second death. Before considering it,
> > however, let us talk about those among us who die in
> > infancy or childhood or early adulthood (?) before
> > having placed their faith in Jesus Christ. I have
> > to tell you, David, this speaks to the one thing
> > which disturbs me more than anything else: Christians
> > who make faith a necessary prerequisite to salvation
> > are really quite inconsiderate.
>
> Wow! I'm listening, but still on the edge of my seat!
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Either they are noncommittal and thus have no words
> > of comfort for those who have suffered the worst
> > imaginable loss,
>
> I think I can think of worse losses, so I'm getting a little nervous
> when I hear such superlatives being thrown around. Such usually
> indicates excessive emotion and hyperbole is expected shortly... :-)
>
> Bill wrote:
> > or they hold to some sort of second, unspoken gospel
> > which does not include their prerequisite, or they
> > themselves hold out no hope for children who die
> > without faith. Whatever the case, it is terribly
> > sick and sad. There is good news for those who have
> > lost a child, and that good news is imbedded in the
> > Gospel and that Gospel is right here in these passages.
>
> So let me get this right. If a doctrine brings bad news, terrible news,
> then something is wrong with that doctrine? The law brought
> condemnation, does that mean we should question the holiness and
> usefulness of the law? I think you are arguing a non-sequitur.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > The question is, do these young ones go to hell
> > when they die, and this because they failed to
> > believe in Jesus Christ? I say absolutely not.
> > They are secure in Christ and we can be sure of
> > that. Their security is absolute. They are
> > eternally secure and this is because it is not
> > faith which saves them -- or anyone else. Therefore,
> > a lack of faith cannot send them to hell. Jesus
> > Christ saves period! -- not faith, not repentance,
> > not baptism, not sanctification, not works:
> > Jesus Christ alone. And he saves these little ones.
> > His faith, his repentance, his baptism, his
> > sanctification, his works, his vicarious nature:
> > He saves us all. The passages under discussion --
> > Rom 5.12ff and IICor 5.14-21 -- make that abundantly
> > clear. These young ones are secure in Christ and we
> > can know that, because they have done nothing to
> > reject him. And there's the key. The first death,
> > their death, is swallowed up in victory. Resurrection
> > to eternal life is theirs in Christ.
>
> Ok, Bill, now the cat is out of the bag, as they say. :-) I am almost
> speechless, shaking my head in disbelief. I am on the one hand so glad
> that you have spoken your mind and laid it out there, but on the other
> hand, I'm not buying what you are selling. :-) I have so many
> questions. I have so many comments. I do not know where to begin.
>
> First, I am confused by your kind words toward Calvin, because based
> upon your theology, Calvin surely would have burned you at the stake
> along with Michael Servetus. You argue the very points he condemns
> vociferously in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. You have
> gotten rid of the problem of original sin basically by saying that all
> children have been sanctified and saved by Christ's work on the cross,
> even before they are born. While Calvin argues that faith is put in the
> heart of the newborn miraculously and that baptism will save them from
> their fallen state, you argue that the children are already redeemed as
> they come into the world, and that they are secure in their salvation as
> long as they never reject Christ! Please tell me whether or not I am
> hearing you right, because I can hardly believe that I am hearing this
> from you. We must progress slowly through this, because surely I am
> misunderstanding you the way that I was said to have misunderstood
> Lance.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > It is the "second death" that damns people to hell.
> > Those who suffer the second death are those who lose
> > their salvation, the very salvation provided them
> > in and through Christ's life, death, and resurrection.
>
> So in your view, everyone is saved by Christ's work, but some people
> reject their salvation. Am I really hearing you right?
>
> You make eternal judgment not based upon works, not based upon how men
> have lived, but upon whether or not they reject Christ, which has
> already been fully formed in them from birth. Am I hearing you right?
>
> Bill wrote:
> > These are those who volitionally reject Jesus Christ.
> > These are those who trample under foot the Son of God
> > and regard as unclean the blood of the covenant by
> > which he was sanctified. They insult the Spirit of grace.
> > They blaspheme the Holy Spirit. They commit the sin
> > which leads to death, the unpardonable sin. Because
> > in their rejection of Christ they deny the Lord who
> > redeemed them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
> > These are those who do not overcome. It is not then
> > just the absence of faith which sends people to hell,
> > it is the outright rejection of Jesus Christ that damns
> > them.
>
> Well, let's see. I am trying to inventory your disagreements with
> Calvinism.
>
> 1. You disagree with Limited Atonement.
>
> 2. You disagree with infant baptism. Are you a Quaker in your view on
> Baptism? (By the way, Jim Elsman is.)
>
> 3. You disagree with the role of faith.
>
> 4. You disagree with Total Depravity in regards to any practical
> application of it, because it has all been taken care of by Christ.
>
> 5. You disagree with Calvin on Original Sin in that Calvin taught that
> all are born guilty, erroneously assuming that there can be no
> condemnation without guilt.
>
> So, why is it that you appreciate Calvin?
>
> Basically, it sounds like you believe in universalism with a twist.
> Everyone is automatically saved in Christ, but some might volitionally
> reject him and jump ship, and thereby be confined to hell. If we add
> Jonathan's concept of hell being in Christ, then all are still in
> Christ, with some volitionally choosing hell in Christ and others
> accepting the gift and not choosing to move their residence to hell.
> This is getting a bit confusing. :-)
>
> For some reason, the idea of ETERNAL JUDGMENT is getting completely lost
> in this discussion. I'm going to wait to hear your response to my
> comments. I have been told that I have misunderstood you guys before,
> so surely I must be misunderstanding again. I can't tell you how many
> problems I have with this theological bombshell you have just dropped
> upon us. :-)
>
> I promise to discuss with you nicely, so please do not think you have to
> stop talking about it. If what you believe is truth, then it would be
> able to hold up to the scrutiny of Scripture, right? I really think it
> would be good if we could get to the bottom of this.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism

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