[TruthTalk] the real vs false

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good evening Judy, Do not be too dismayed by being judgmental.  You are in good company; I myself am quite critical.  J    jt: Your criticisms are on a personal/national level. I don't practice that and this is why I would like a list of what I have said that you consider to be judgmental.   I am being very honest when I say that I could easily whip up a post containing many references to you being judgmental, towards myself and others.  You may think I am being double minded or hypocritical when I now state that I will not do this.   jt: Why not?  If you are going to continue to accuse you should be able to produce the grounds for your accusation.   If you go back a few months you will see where I have tried this with you before (not just me but others tried as well [there is that ambiguous others again I have no desire to out what others have communicated to me in private.    jt:  Others like Ellsman, Chris Barr, Lance?  I'm not surprised to learn that we have some private gossiping going on as well; so much for the divine dance and all inclusive incarnation.  Bad fruit.   A quick look back through your emails in the last 4 months will make it very clear that the tone and judgmental attitude expressed in your posts have been called into question a number of times.]).  It was unsuccessful.  Note that to your credit this time you have actually invited critique.   jt: The reason I am asking you for evidence this time Jonathan is because I am weary of your constantly alluding to these things. You never dialogue in an up front way and neither does Lance.  Both of you use obscure theological words and lots of one liners. You appear to have some favorite authors and theologians in common but there is no fellowship around God's Word. At this point I don't believe you know the Word of God or the God of the Word.  Now I am not being mean or judgmental - as you have repeatedly claimed "I am just stating how I see it"   The comment below was a contrast between Izzys graceful response to my illness and yours.  You may think it double minded of me to praise Izzy in one post and in another give a rather severe critique.  Never confuse a critique on something specific (such as a behaviour, action, or words) with a critique on who the person is as a whole.    jt: What??? You don't know either of us as a whole Jonathan.  Izzy is a nurse by profession so you apparently relate to her professional approach which is fine but all you have is an opinion based on an internet persona with little or no actual knowledge.   Anyways, conscious of the fact that I have a chronic illness and struggle mightily with your viewpoint on a connection between sin and illness you made a few responses that I felt contained little if any compassion.  I thought that you should have been softer.  I feel that you should be much softer in almost all of your posts.  I would love to see a spirit of gentleness and caring from you.    jt: Jonathan if you've been struggling with CFS for 16yrs I would think you would want to be free of it.  I know it feels good to be stroked but until you deal with the underlying spiritual issues you will die with CFS so I try to encourage in a different way.  During his earthly ministry Jesus told people he healed to "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come on you"  Do you think he was being judgmental and hard on them?    What I usually see is a number of biblical passages thrown together to make a hard edged argument.  What I find disconcerting about your theology is that it does not seem to be good news at all.    jt: They are not just "thrown together" - Have you bothered to go to the Lord about these things?  To me the Good News is the proof of the pudding - which is actual freedom rather than all this high sounding doctrinal talk.   It doesnt lead me to Gods feet in worship.  You may be surprised to learn that I used to think much like you do (actually I was probably even more conservative).  I used to argue with passages in the same way, driving my point home as if I could speak for God.    jt: God has already spoken, and I accept it. I'm not driving anything home. It's your choice where you want to walk.   God had to wear me down quite a bit to allow the grace of Jesus Christ to seep into my heart (and He continues to do so).  I am sure you think that I have fallen into deception.  I think I have never been more in love with Him, nor had the ability to love others like I do now.    jt: Apparently these others don't include the leadership of the USA.  I hope you don't mind if I am brutally honest (rather than judgmental) but it has been my observation that those of you who hold to this incarnational perichoresis are very easily offended and seem to consider that you live on a higher plane.    Judyt           From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] the real vs false   Jonathan, You have got to be the most double minded man I have come across on an internet list to date - Today you write: JH:  I prefer Izzys way as it demonstrates love and her deep relationship with God.  I feel that your way demonstrates judgement. There is a time to be loving and a time to speak the truth harshly.  I think you spend most of your time in the latter.  This saddens me and others on this forum.  (signed Jonathan)  Yesterday you and Izzy went through the "poison pen" dialogue below and the day before that you were talking about the moderator restraining her.  Since I am accused of such judgmentalism I would make the same request to you as you made to Izzy. I am asking you to show me in my own words (not your opinion) as she has done below where and how I have been judgmental toward you.  You also need to name the "others" who are so saddened by my judgmentalism.  Judyt     From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Okay, Jonathan, here are quotes from your own poison pen:   Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? (That obviously makes me anti-Christian!)   you are horribly educated about the roles America has played. (Oh, really!)   My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (Oh, well if only I had known that I wouldnt have been upset about it!)   During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.  (And this is a problem???)   It is bad to confuse our country with God.  (Well, DUH!)   It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. (Listening to horse apples makes us whole?)   I do not want any one to feel attacked here.  (Thats real news!)   That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process. (I do not consider resenting insults to my Pres or country to be a sacred cow.)        And from the poison pen of your evil twin, Lance, comes the following:   From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. (?????????????????)   Let's just say that he did well to surround himself with people who are smart (unlike himself).  (I suppose really smart people cant find anyone who are smart to surround themselves with?)   Izzy: 'Religious Spirit' is that to which I was referring. Yes, you interpreted me correctly in ascribing that to yourself.  (Just for defending my President and country???)   the preemptive invasion of Iraq (without a doubt the dumbest move in Bush's presidency),  (Oh, and how many dumb moves have you counted?)     Your stupid-loving, horribly educated, antichristian, confused, unwhole, horseapple eating friend with the Religious Spirit, Izzy         From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 4:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   Hi Izzy,   This is getting so tiring.  The real vs false in the title comes into play here.  Keep in mind that I did watch the unprovoked assault (I was home sick that day and watched it in real time as I happened to have CNN on).  Keep in mind that I am probably closer distance wise to the location of the attack than you are.  Keep in mind that 24 innocent Canadians were killed in the attacks as well.  Keep in mind that I do not believe that the attack was just against America although it took place on American soil; it was against the Western world.  Keep in mind that I include Canada in that critique.   I never in any way, shape, form or fashion said any of my remarks on the incredible tragedy of 9/11 with a smirk.  I never said that it was anything close to being finallywhat you had coming to you.  Those are lies you have made up.  You are mad at a perception in your own mind.  My attitude has never approached anything evil, hateful, or disgusting.  You owe me an apology for these lies. Either back them up with actual quotes from me or retract them.  As I pointed out time and time again (with no response from you  did you even read my posts?) my problem with you is your rejection of critical thinking regarding the attacks.  To say they were because of hatred does not answer the question. It begs another: Why is the Western world (personified by America) hated?  Then you start getting somewhere.  Am I dismissing your anger regarding the injustice of the attacks?  No!  It angers me as well.  Rather I am saying that 2 and a half years later it is time to be reflective and learn from the tragedy.   Jonathan         From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 4:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   Just keep in mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched an unprovoked assault on your nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed by perverts who just hate you for being Canadians, and then someone said to you with a smirk, Well, maybe now you will try to figure out why they didnt like you.  You finally got what you had coming to you.  You should expect an angry response to such an evil attitude.  And then you have the NERVE to accuse me of confusing America with God and an unhealthy attitude??? You are a real piece of liberal work.  Izzy         From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   Aye thank you Lance,   However I am afraid that the message will fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting posts with slurs.  Sigh. Her posts in the last half hour that I have been writing this continue in this vein.  It is sad.   One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others.  Then when her countrys actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy).  This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude.   My opinion is as follows: It is good to love your country. It is good to be grateful to your country for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides. It is good to pray for and support your leaders. It is bad to confuse our country with God. It is bad to confuse prosperity with blessing. It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. It is bad to not be able to listen to criticism. It is bad to refuse to listen when our sacred cow is being addressed. (note that when I switch to the bad here I intentionally switch from your to our in order to highlight that we are all in this together. I do not want any one to feel attacked here.  You may also replace good with Christian and bad with unchristian.)   That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process.  It is often easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have been poked.  For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity.  This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred cows.  What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really hear what she is saying without confusing it with the baggage I bring with it.  For you Izzy perhaps I should concentrate on the devotion and love you have for your leaders.  I respect your love for them.  What I question is a love that strikes back in anger and stops conversation, fencing me off, refusing to listen and learn from other peoples opinions.)  What I plead and beg of Izzy is to listen to what others have to say, to ask the tough questions we want to avoid.  If it makes you angry this is often a sign of some sort of blockage.  It is far too easy to confuse our anger with righteous anger.  This means becoming vulnerable as the Spirit strips us of our mis-truths.  In this way we can heal.  In this way even our countries can heal.   Jonathan       From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why.   On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.   Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another.   So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   My, my, lots of political stews today.  My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something.  (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America).   Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?  Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel?  I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing.  It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with.  Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for?  Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you?   When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him.  Your logic is ridiculous!  If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like.  I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush).   For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena.  Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more?  Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God?  Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)?  Do you confuse Americas prosperity with Gods blessing?  Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian?  >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian.   Enough politics for me.  Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ.   Jonathan       From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American).  When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation.  Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught you any better manners than that? Izzy         From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance Muir   From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.