[TruthTalk] the real vs false

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From the sound of things you may not care much for what I have to say inresponse.  You have not offended me, but you have deeply hurt me.    jt: Then your answer is No!  You probably don't want to take the time which tells me you are insincere and not interested in genuine dialogue.  I don't want to see any more accusations from you.   BTW I understand what you are saying - and choose not to take it to heart because I believe you are in error.  Your beliefs are rooted in Calvinism.   Judyt     From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good evening Judy, Do not be too dismayed by being judgmental.  You are in good company; I myself am quite critical.  J    jt: Your criticisms are on a personal/national level. I don't practice that and this is why I would like a list of what I have said that you consider to be judgmental.   I am being very honest when I say that I could easily whip up a post containing many references to you being judgmental, towards myself and others.  You may think I am being double minded or hypocritical when I now state that I will not do this.   jt: Why not?  If you are going to continue to accuse you should be able to produce the grounds for your accusation.   If you go back a few months you will see where I have tried this with you before (not just me but others tried as well [there is that ambiguous others again I have no desire to out what others have communicated to me in private.    jt:  Others like Ellsman, Chris Barr, Lance?  I'm not surprised to learn that we have some private gossiping going on as well; so much for the divine dance and all inclusive incarnation.  Bad fruit.   A quick look back through your emails in the last 4 months will make it very clear that the tone and judgmental attitude expressed in your posts have been called into question a number of times.]).  It was unsuccessful.  Note that to your credit this time you have actually invited critique.   jt: The reason I am asking you for evidence this time Jonathan is because I am weary of your constantly alluding to these things. You never dialogue in an up front way and neither does Lance.  Both of you use obscure theological words and lots of one liners. You appear to have some favorite authors and theologians in common but there is no fellowship around God's Word. At this point I don't believe you know the Word of God or the God of the Word.  Now I am not being mean or judgmental - as you have repeatedly claimed "I am just stating how I see it"   The comment below was a contrast between Izzys graceful response to my illness and yours.  You may think it double minded of me to praise Izzy in one post and in another give a rather severe critique.  Never confuse a critique on something specific (such as a behaviour, action, or words) with a critique on who the person is as a whole.    jt: What??? You don't know either of us as a whole Jonathan.  Izzy is a nurse by profession so you apparently relate to her professional approach which is fine but all you have is an opinion based on an internet persona with little or no actual knowledge.   Anyways, conscious of the fact that I have a chronic illness and struggle mightily with your viewpoint on a connection between sin and illness you made a few responses that I felt contained little if any compassion.  I thought that you should have been softer.  I feel that you should be much softer in almost all of your posts.  I would love to see a spirit of gentleness and caring from you.   jt: Jonathan if you've been struggling with CFS for 16yrs I would think you would want to be free of it.  I know it feels good to be stroked but until you deal with the underlying spiritual issues you will die with CFS so I try to encourage in a different way.  During his earthly ministry Jesus told people he healed to "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come on you"  Do you think he was being judgmental and hard on them?   What I usually see is a number of biblical passages thrown together to make a hard edged argument.  What I find disconcerting about your theology is that it does not seem to be good news at all.    jt: They are not just "thrown together" - Have you bothered to go to the Lord about these things?  To me the Good News is the proof of the pudding - which is actual freedom rather than all this high sounding doctrinal talk.   It doesnt lead me to Gods feet in worship.  You may be surprised to learn that I used to think much like you do (actually I was probably even more conservative).  I used to argue with passages in the same way, driving my point home as if I could speak for God.    jt: God has already spoken, and I accept it. I'm not driving anything home. It's your choice where you want to walk.   God had to wear me down quite a bit to allow the grace of Jesus Christ to seep into my heart (and He continues to do so).  I am sure you think that I have fallen into deception.  I think I have never been more in love with Him, nor had the ability to love others like I do now.    jt: Apparently these others don't include the leadership of the USA.  I hope you don't mind if I am brutally honest (rather than judgmental) but it has been my observation that those of you who hold to this incarnational perichoresis are very easily offended and seem to consider that you live on a higher plane.    Judyt           From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] the real vs false   Jonathan, You have got to be the most double minded man I have come across on an internet list to date - Today you write: JH:  I prefer Izzys way as it demonstrates love and her deep relationship with God.  I feel that your way demonstrates judgement. There is a time to be loving and a time to speak the truth harshly.  I think you spend most of your time in the latter.  This saddens me and others on this forum.  (signed Jonathan)  Yesterday you and Izzy went through the "poison pen" dialogue below and the day before that you were talking about the moderator restraining her.  Since I am accused of such judgmentalism I would make the same request to you as you made to Izzy. I am asking you to show me in my own words (not your opinion) as she has done below where and how I have been judgmental toward you.  You also need to name the "others" who are so saddened by my judgmentalism.  Judyt     From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Okay, Jonathan, here are quotes from your own poison pen:   Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? (That obviously makes me anti-Christian!)   you are horribly educated about the roles America has played. (Oh, really!)   My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true.  It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (Oh, well if only I had known that I wouldnt have been upset about it!)   During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.  (And this is a problem???)   It is bad to confuse our country with God.  (Well, DUH!)   It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. (Listening to horse apples makes us whole?)   I do not want any one to feel attacked here.  (Thats real news!)   That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process. (I do not consider resenting insults to my Pres or country to be a sacred cow.)        And from the poison pen of your evil twin, Lance, comes the following:   From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. (?????????????????)   Let's just say that he did well to surround himself with people who are smart (unlike himself).  (I suppose really smart people cant find anyone who are smart to surround themselves with?)   Izzy: 'Religious Spirit' is that to which I was referring. Yes, you interpreted me correctly in ascribing that to yourself.  (Just for defending my President and country???)   the preemptive invasion of Iraq (without a doubt the dumbest move in Bush's presidency),  (Oh, and how many dumb moves have you counted?)     Your stupid-loving, horribly educated, antichristian, confused, unwhole, horseapple eating friend with the Religious Spirit, Izzy