RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence

[Jonathan Hughes]

Let me take a shot at this and a few other things Lance has said on the same topic.  If I am wrong I am sure Lance will correct me.  I am in the process of working this stuff out.  My post will not be as tight as I would like it to be and may have a lot of holes to fill in (if not outright errors).  This can take a bit to work out so feel free to ask lots of questions based upon this short reply.   There are two things Lance is doing in his brief responses:   1) To illustrate that all principles that we call moral and Christian are a result of our environment.  In other words they are not part of a moral natural law view.  The reason you do not murder is not because it is a law written on our hearts but rather that it is socially unacceptable to do so. 2)  The next point is that moralism in all its forms is not to be equated with Christianity or its Holy Book the Bible.  Moralism is an individual’s attempt to get right with God without God.  One can be completely moral and have no relationship with Jesus Christ.  How this works from a ‘reading the Bible’ perspective will follow below.   Lance has done a lot of thinking on the conscience.  We believe that all behaviours are not a result of Christian morals but rather because they are socially acceptable.  In the nature versus nurture debate we side on nurture.  Let’s begin in the garden (thanks goes to Bruce Wachope for supplying the initial fodder for what is about to be discussed).  What did Adam and Eve lack?  A knowledge of good and evil.  It was this tree that they ate from that supplied them this.  A conscience = a knowledge of good and evil.  Now that the conscience was in place man began to think from this conscience, to view everything from the conscience’s leadings.  What was the first thing man did after the Fall?  What is the first thing we all do once we have done something wrong?  They hid.  They now painted God’s face from within the viewpoint of their new conscience.  Had God changed?  Was He not the same loving God that walked in the garden with them?  Of course.  What had changed was man’s new perception of God.  Based upon this perception (the conscience) they created a mythological deity.  We continue to do the same today.  Where do we look to see if we are living a good Christian life?  We look inside to our conscience to see whether it judges us.  If we hear no judgment back we feel that we are doing ok.  Our barometer in our Christian life becomes our conscience (a neat exercise is to take all the world religions and see how massive a role the conscience plays as our judge whether this be karma, nirvana etc.).  We now believe that our conscience speaks for God in a one to one relationship.  The barometer in our lives should be us taking in faith who God says we are based upon who He Himself is towards us (a difficult sentence that I need to rewrite and make easier to understand).  This is why the Bible speaks of an ‘evil conscience’.  It is something we should use as an aide (guide) but never as a judge.  If I was to make a blanket statement that is far to general to be of much use I would say that it is people believing their consciences about who they are that is the cause of most if not all depression today especially Christians.   To view the Bible as an answer book, as a book of principles leads one into moralism.  Taking any principal from the Bible (or taking a law) and following it only makes one moral.  Our conscience will be satisfied but there is no relationship here.  The problem with it is that the principal has been divorced from its context: the person of Jesus Christ.  All principals and laws within the Bible must be submitted to who God is (Triune).  When this is done and they are worked out of a relationship with our God then they become less principals and more who we are (another sentence that needs work).   On the political side we both have countries that were founded on what we call Christian principles (since they side with how we think Christians should act).  Since it is clear that these ‘principles’ have become divorced from who God is and are not worked out in relationship, neither of us live in a Christian nation.  Your Bill of Rights and our constitution are great but on their own lead to moralism, not to God.   I am going to leave it here for now.  Reading over it I realize how much work it needs but it is a start for the conversation.   Jonathan   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 4:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence   Apparently not yours? Why can’t you explain WHAT YOUR WORDS MEAN? Don’t go weird(er) on us, Lance! Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence   Izzy:words 'mean' things. ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 10:17 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence   What does THAT mean???????????????????? Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence   Izzy:There are no christian principles. None, notta, don't exist, el hugeo mistako. Nor, are there christian values or morals. ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 29, 2004 07:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence   Lance, You are right. America is not, and never has been officially a Christian nation.  It was just founded by many Christian men, with Christian principles, and that is what makes it so wonderful.  Have you read anything at all about our founders??? Izzy