----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:00
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Metaphorically
speaking vs Spiritual Reality
jt: My question is why are they
dead?
Now I am convinced. You do not understand
metaphor. A metaphor is a figure of speech, Judy, in which on object is
liked to another by speaking of it as if it
were that other object. If I say "you are riding a dead horse
here." I do not mean you have really mounted a dead horse, that
you're whooping and kicking away; I mean your argument is going nowhere;
it's pointless and you need to dismount (metaphorically, of
course).
jt: Thank you for the mini
lesson Bill but I do understand the meaning of both similitude and
metaphor. I just don't agree that scripture is as full of them as you
appear to believe.
BT: When Paul writes to living people,
or when Jesus speaks of living people, and calls them dead, he does not
mean they are really dead -- they are obviously alive! -- he
means they are living as if they were dead; they are helpless to do
anything to bring about their own salvation.
jt: No what both Jesus and
Paul mean is that they are spiritually dead, IOW they have been deceived
and they are walking in darkness. It is possible to be
biologically/physically alive and ATST spiritually dead. In fact
before spiritual death became a part of the first two human beings it
was impossible to die physically.
That is the wonderful point that Paul is
making in Eph 2. It was while humans were as it were dead
and helpless in trespasses that God "made us alive together with
Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made
us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). Why
were they dead? Because of their sin; because there was no way to bridge
the gap between humanity and God until the sin problem was confronted and
defeated. This is what Christ did. This is the Gospel.
jt: You have gone way, way
past what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2 Bill. He says to the Church
at Ephesus in Vs.1 "You hath He quickened" who WERE dead in
trespasses and sin." The idea being that there had been some repentance
and these people are now in the process of being sanctified. Yes
Jesus made the way for us to be reconciled with the Father and yes He
defeated principalities and powers and He made a show of them
openly. However, we still have to deal with the sin that is in our
own lives, He did not do this for us at Calvary. We MUST learn to
discern between good and evil because before God we are responsible for
our own choices.
jt: Ephesians is written post
Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and
seated in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what you've
been telling us.
BT: Judy, read this and tell me who you think
is telling you this: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us
alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us
up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ
Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). It was at Calvary that
God did this. It was there that Christ was raised from the dead. And when
he ascended we ascended.
jt: The apostle is
speaking to the Church at Ephesus by faith and this is a faith reality.
However, you
are teaching Positional Truth Bill and I've been there and
done that [....] I once had a plaque on my wall that a
friend gave me which read "keep looking
down, you're seated with Christ in the
heavenlies" It all sounds very high and wonderful but we need to be
more concerned with walking in repentance and sanctification -
or the devil will eat us for lunch. We must
have more balance and context and less metaphor Freedom should
be a present reality.
BT: I don't know if this is any comfort to
you, Judy, but many of the people to whom Paul was writing were alive
when Calvary took place. He is writing to them about an event that took
place in their or their parent's lifetime. They looked at Calvary as very
much a real space-time event, a pivotal point in human history,
a point that happened in their own lifetime. We tend to think the gap into
the equation. We think this has to happen to us in our lifetime. That is a
RC idea, just keep good ol' Jesus on the cross. Crucify him over and over
again. No, the work of salvation is finished. Christ did it once for all!
We participate in it, but we do nothing to cause
it.
jt: I'm not hung up on who
causes salvation or WHEN Calvary happened Bill. I'm a lot more concerned
with WHY. My belief is that Jesus was as a lamb slain BEFORE the
foundation of the world - so God's Old Covenant saints (the
prophets)looked fwd (even if they didn't know what they were looking for)
just as we look back. - The sacrificial system under the Law of Moses
was to teach us through all of that blood and gore the destructiveness and
abominable nature of sin before a holy God. Yes Jesus paid the price for our
reconciliation with God by being the spotless lamb who became
propitiation for our sin and now it is time to do our part by
parting company with it (sin). This is called "repentance
without regret" Salvation is a process and sanctification is a
second work of grace - none of it is a done deal other than by
faith. When we are quickened and sealed with the Holy Spirit it
is just the beginning.. Yes it is impossible without Him and He gets
all the glory but we don't endure to the end unless we take
responsibility for our own stuff and fulfil our part of the Covenant. Do
you have a problem with any of this?
judyt
