----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:00
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Metaphorically
speaking vs Spiritual Reality
jt: My question is why are
they dead?
Now I am convinced. You do not understand
metaphor. A metaphor is a figure of speech, Judy, in which on object is
liked to another by speaking of it as if it
were that other object. If I say "you are riding a dead
horse here." I do not mean you have really mounted a dead horse,
that you're whooping and kicking away; I mean your argument is going
nowhere; it's pointless and you need to dismount (metaphorically,
of course).
jt: Thank you for the
mini lesson Bill but I do understand the meaning of both similitude and
metaphor. I just don't agree that scripture is as full of them as you
appear to believe.
BT: When Paul writes to living
people, or when Jesus speaks of living people, and calls them dead, he
does not mean they are really dead -- they are obviously alive!
-- he means they are living as if they were dead; they are helpless
to do anything to bring about their own salvation.
jt: No what both Jesus
and Paul mean is that they are spiritually dead, IOW they have been
deceived and they are walking in darkness. It is possible to be
biologically/physically alive and ATST spiritually dead. In fact
before spiritual death became a part of the first two human beings it
was impossible to die physically.
That is the wonderful point that Paul is
making in Eph 2. It was while humans were as it were
dead and helpless in trespasses that God "made us alive together
with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together,
and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.
2.5-6). Why were they dead? Because of their sin; because there was no
way to bridge the gap between humanity and God until the sin problem was
confronted and defeated. This is what Christ did. This is the
Gospel.
jt: You have gone way,
way past what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2 Bill. He says to the
Church at Ephesus in Vs.1 "You hath He quickened" who WERE dead
in trespasses and sin." The idea being that there had been some
repentance and these people are now in the process of being
sanctified. Yes Jesus made the way for us to be reconciled with
the Father and yes He defeated principalities and powers and He made a
show of them openly. However, we still have to deal with the sin
that is in our own lives, He did not do this for us at Calvary. We
MUST learn to discern between good and evil because before God we are
responsible for our own choices.
jt: Ephesians is written post
Calvary. I thought that your belief is that everyone had been raised and
seated in the heavenlies with Christ already, at least this is what
you've been telling us.
BT: Judy, read this and tell me who you
think is telling you this: "even when we were dead in trespasses, [God]
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and
raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places
in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2.5-6). It was at
Calvary that God did this. It was there that Christ was raised from the
dead. And when he ascended we ascended.
jt: The apostle is
speaking to the Church at Ephesus by faith and this is a faith reality.
However, you
are teaching Positional Truth Bill and I've been there
and done that [....] I once had a plaque on my wall that
a friend gave me which read "keep looking
down, you're seated with Christ in the
heavenlies" It all sounds very high and wonderful but we need to
be more concerned with walking in repentance and
sanctification - or the devil will eat us for lunch. We must
have more balance and context and less metaphor Freedom should
be a present reality.
BT: I don't know if this is any comfort to
you, Judy, but many of the people to whom Paul was writing
were alive when Calvary took place. He is writing to them about an
event that took place in their or their parent's lifetime. They looked
at Calvary as very much a real space-time event, a pivotal
point in human history, a point that happened in their own lifetime. We
tend to think the gap into the equation. We think this has to happen to
us in our lifetime. That is a RC idea, just keep good ol' Jesus on the
cross. Crucify him over and over again. No, the work of salvation is
finished. Christ did it once for all! We participate in it, but we do
nothing to cause it.
jt: I'm not hung up on
who causes salvation or WHEN Calvary happened Bill. I'm a lot more
concerned with WHY. My belief is that Jesus was as a lamb
slain BEFORE the foundation of the world - so God's Old Covenant
saints (the prophets)looked fwd (even if they didn't know what they were
looking for) just as we look back. - The sacrificial system under
the Law of Moses was to teach us through all of that blood and gore the
destructiveness and abominable nature of sin before a holy God.
Yes Jesus paid the
price for our reconciliation with God by being the spotless lamb
who became propitiation for our sin and now it is time to do our part by
parting company with it (sin). This is called "repentance
without regret" Salvation is a process and sanctification is a
second work of grace - none of it is a done deal other than by
faith. When we are quickened and sealed with the Holy Spirit
it is just the beginning.. Yes it is impossible without Him and He
gets all the glory but we don't endure to the end unless
we take responsibility for our own stuff and fulfil our part of the
Covenant. Do you have a problem with any of this?
judyt
