jt responded: To love a child is to discipline
a child. God says that an undisciplined child is an unloved
child.
Bill > Nice spin, Judy. But it hardly addresses the point. Let
me ask the question a different way. Let's say you had told your kids (or
your grandchildren) to do their chores, their homework, and to eat all their
vegetables. Would you stop loving them if they did not? Let's say they did
not do these things, and this in spite of knowing how important they are to
you, would you hate them because they disobeyed you? I'm sure you may
discipline them if they didn't do what they were told, as well you should,
but does this make your love conditional? Do this or I will not love you,
but I will discipline you. That doesn't make much sense to me.
jt: They would be disciplined for
outright disobedience and rebellion. I understand that
some people in this day of instant
gratification interpret discipline as rejection rather than love and
because of parental opposition proper discipline has been banished from
our public schools (here anyway). Rebellion and disrespect will always
cause a breach and put an end to any kind of meaningful relationship between
children and parents and between God and his creation.
BT
wrote: But from where does this right sense come if not from God? Why should
it be wrong for us to place conditions upon our love if this is how God
enacts his love for us?
jt: God's love is and has always been conditional
even though theology causes some to deny this fact. These are the ones
with private interpretations who dismiss or ignore the ifs, ands, and
buts, of scripture, Love is a two way street or else there is a
breach.
Bill > I've heard this saying many times, Judy. But
I do not believe it. A relationship is a two way street. A loving
relationship is the heart of God. But love itself is not dependent upon
reciprocation.
jt: The wisdom of God speaks as follows:
"I love those who love me, and those who
seek me early and diligently shall find me" (Proverbs 8:17)
"Therefore the Lord the God of Israel says, "I did
promise that your house and that of your father (fore-father Aaron) should
go in and out before Me for ever. But now the Lord says "Be it far from Me;
for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall
be lightly esteemed." (1 Samuel 2:30)
"Because He has set his love upon Me,
therefore will I deliver him; I will set him on high, because he
knows and understands My name (has a personal knowledge of My mercy, love
and kindness, trusts and relies on Me, knowing I will never forsake him, no
never). He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in
trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy
him, and show him My salvation" (Psalm 91:14)
"The person who has My commands and keeps
them is the one who (really) loves Me, and whoever (really) loves
me will be loved by My Father. And I (too) will love him and will
show (reveal manifest) Myself to him - I will let Myself be clearly seen by
him and make Myself real to him" (John 14:21)
BT: How could it be? we are to love our enemies. We do not tell them we
will love them if and only if they will love us in return. Jesus says we are
to love them, not expecting anything in return (cf Luke 6.35). This does not
sound to me like something that is a two way street. Quite the opposite, in
fact. And is God any different?
jt: No God is not different, He causes it to rain
upon both the just and the unjust; He provides for us all and everyone
is given a measure of time to get it together. However, until we repent and
turn from darkness to light we have no fellowship with Him or with his
people (those who are walking in the light) and His blood in this case does
not not avail for us. All embracing fleshly compassion is light years
away from the love of God. There is a difference.
BT: Paul says that God demonstrated his love for us, in that while we
were still sinners, Christ died for us, and that it was while we were
enemies with him that he reconciled us through the death of his son (cf Rom
5.8,10). Love suffers long, and it does not seek its own. It bears all
things. There is nothing that has to be two way about any of this -- not at
least that I can tell. How about you?
jt: Anyone who loves and obeys God and is living in
this old world of sin and shame for very long will have plenty of
opportunity to suffer long and bear all things if they are going to keep
their heart with all diligence staying away from sin
themselves.
BT: I don't know, Judy; I think maybe you've been duped by some of
that philosophy you don't read.
jt: You are the one who knows and can evaluate the
philosophy Bill, but remember satan is the great imitater. God has given
parents the responsibility to train a child in the way he should go so that
he is able to love God, himself and others.
And God Himself sets the example. Scripture says
that without discipline (which is painful) one is a bastard and not a child
of His. (Hebrews 12:8)
BT wrote: God's love is unconditional. He loved us before we loved him.
Did you get that? -- Does this not indicate that he also loved us before we
were meeting any of his requirements?
jt responded: He loved mankind enough to allow His
only begotten son to become a sacrifice for us, however, this is not
carte blanche nepotism. Sin makes a breach that causes God to not only hide
his face from us - but to allow the curse to light because of our
transgression - this is divine justice - What do you do with that?
Bill > I don't
really know what to do with it, Judy: Where did you get it? I am pretty
confident of this: the curtain has been torn from top to bottom; God is no
longer hiding his face; our sins have been removed as far as the east is
from the west; God remembers them no more; God in Christ reconciled the
world to himself. Does this have anything to do with that?
jt: Have you thrown out everything on the other
side of Calvary Bill? These things were written for our learning and
God has not changed. He is still the same Holy and Righteous God who
struck terror into the hearts of the Israelites when He met with Moses on
Mt.Sinai and said that noone but Moses was to approach Him. He is just
as Holy and hates sin just as much today as He did then. So until we
repent and willingly part with them our sins have not gone anywhere. We are
deceiving ourselves. We can not barge into the throne room clutching them in
one hand and our doctrinal statement in the other. We come to the
sacrifice in time of need humbly with a repentant heart because the God
of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the God who does not change says: "But this is
the man to whom I will look and have regard, he who is humble and of a
broken or wounded spirit, and who trembles at My word and reveres My
commands. (The acts of the hypocrite's worship are as abominable to God as
if they were offered to idols). (Isa 66:2,3a). God made the ultimate sacrifice by faith and your faith
statement above is potentially true but - as they say "Let's get real"
the world (so far) is not reconciled to God, (not yet anyway), and there is
nothing at all wrong with His memory.
Grace and Peace,
Judy
