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Yes, Jack, we sure are. Again, I think it is not
our theology which saves us. It is Jesus Christ. And it's a good thing too! or
heaven would be a really lonely place. Some people act as though everything has
to be all figured out -- and all figured out their way! -- or you're going to
hell. Well, I hope for their sake they're right, because we are going to be
judged by the way we judge others . . .
Theology is in part how we know God. The better our
theology, the better equipped we are to know him.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates
A most interesting
exchange. And I do think that Iz held her own in this
one. I have a question for Bill -- actually for anyone
who would care to answer. How does I Co 8:1-4 play in this
discussion of opposing theologies. When it is all said and
done -- arn't we all a little
ignorant?
John
In a message dated 7/18/2004
8:06:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Bill, I am encouraged that you were not discouraged by my
comments, and that you replied. J It seems you are easily put-off
sometimes. (Me also, I admit!) So may I make a couple of further comments?
How about
in blue this time?
Izzy asks > Why is
this so important to you, Bill? Why is the idea that our salvation happened
<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">before we believed it (vs the
idea that salvation is provided but only occurs when one receives it
willingly by faith) of such paramount significance to you?Because it gives
preeminence to Jesus Christ, he whom the Bible calls our Lord and Savior.
Not to be
disagreeable, but I DO give ALL preemincence to Jesus.BT: I'm sure you genuinely
believe you do, Izzy. How much more preeminent would he be if you would
credit all of your salvation to him and did not credit any of your salvation
to your faithful response and obedient perseverance? You do consider these
to be conditions that you must meet in order for salvation to be yours,
don't you? I can only tell you what is in my heart, and you can choose
to believe me or not: JESUS gets ALL the credit for anything I do that is
obedient or good, for my ability to even understand and receive His grace,
and certainly for HIS saving grace by HIS Blood which has made everything
possible. Do you think I am ignorant, or just lying? I hope
not.
Arminianism is a nowhere road,
Izzy. The only way it works is IF you are willing to put believers alongside
Jesus Christ and call them both Saviors. The requirements of faith and
obedience do not make us co-redeemers. They are Godâs
requirements, not Manâs. They are repeatedly demanded by God
throughout all of scripture. BT: Those "requirements" do make
you "co-redeemers" when you make your salvation contingent upon their
fulfillment. Yes, God makes commandments, but only after or in the context
of the indicatives of his grace. I once tried to show you this and Judy so
erupted that I finally dropped it. I agree that His grace comes
first. Faith and obedience only show that I am HIS obedient servant, who
gratefully has received His grace.
To insist otherwise is to
make oneâs theology preeminent over Godâs Word. BT: It only places one's
theology over God's word if it is false, Izzy. But if it is true and you
refuse to believe or even consider it, it is disobedience. So how do we resolve which belief
is false, except by loving exchanges like this; to side by side think it
through? We must do this, because we love each other.
Historically speaking
-- since the Reformation, that is -- the other evangelical alternative has
been Calvinism. It at least upholds the absolute agency of God in salvation
and recognizes humanity as the helpless lot it is. But I am not in favor of
what it does to the character of God in the process.I am excited about
Trinitarian\Incarnational Theology (thank you for giving it a Name!)
because it
gets beyond the never ending pitwars of Arminian v Calvinist infighting.
This is truly an exceptional theology. It is historically grounded in the
early church (not that that makes it true, but it does give it precedence
that places it in close proximity to NT times). It upholds the Reformed
tenet of sola gracia, yet it does this without shifting blame toward
God for those who refuse to believe. At the same time it allows for full
participation in salvation, without making salvation an act of
co-redemption. I appreciate your good motives in wanting this to be true.
However to me it seems a way of escape from responsibility for our sinful
behavior; can you see how it I might think that?
Bill I am glad you are
excited about something. You may think Iâm an airhead because such
theological complexities donât interest me. However to me such endeavors
only serve to put Theology above the Simplicity of believing and accepting
His Word without second-guessing, questioning, or out-maneuvering HIS
will. Whether or not people argue about their theologies is not an
issue for me, and causes me no loss of sleep. I donât need to resolve it. I
donât need to understand everything about it. I just accept it âas a little
child.â BT: I don't get this one, Izzy. You ask me why I think this
is so important and when I answer you, you grab onto it and use it as an
opportunity to extol the higher virtues of ignorance. Sorry to appear ignorant to you.
Have you ever thought I might have chosen to have differing priorities than
you? Perhaps I think I understand, and therefore spend my life acting on
what I understand, rather than spending my life continually seeking a better
theology? Maybe if you took a little more interest in your heritage you
would appreciate the hard work of your brothers and sisters who have.
Donât
misunderstand my appreciation for those who seek deeper walks with the
Lord. I simply stopped seeking a new theology when I found my home in
what I have found in Him. Do you fault me for this? Should I continue
seeking a new theology when I am not discontent? That does not mean that I think I
already know everything, which is why I am always open to growth and
discussion. In the meantime, do not suppose that I don't accept it "as a
little child." The word for child means formable, impressionable, someone
who can be shaped and molded. I don't know, Izzy, it seems to me that most
Evangelicals, if they've been Christians very long, get pretty set in their
ways.I agree. Sometimes it takes God to shake us out of our
complacency.
The above mentioned teaching is of paramount
significance because it lets love be what it is: unconditional. That is the problem with
this Theology you have embraced. Godâs love is not unconditional. It
is free for those who will receive it by meeting His conditions, because He
paid the price to make it possible. BT: God's love is unconditional, Izzy.
God is love. What "conditions" were there when all there was was the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit? Did God change his nature when he created? Is the love
he has for us different than the love that he is in his being, the love that
he shares with his Son in the Holy Spirit? Are you the kind of mother who
would say "I'll love you if and only if you do your chores,
and your homework, and eat all your vegetables"? Assuming you're not, Do you
think it would be wrong if you were? I do. But from where does this right
sense come if not from God? Why should it be wrong for us to place
conditions upon our love if this is how God enacts his love for us?God's
love is unconditional. He loved us before we loved him. Did you get
that? -- Does this not indicate that he also loved us before we were meeting
any of his requirements? Actually love MUST set
conditions, or it is not love. Did you not set conditions for your
children, such as Donât run out into the street, or you will get hurt? You
have conditions all of the time. Godâs LOVE is not conditional. Our
<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">relationship with Him is.
He said it; I did not. As a parent I hope you would be the same way.
Would you allow your child to rob you, beat up his Mom, and still live in
your home? I hope not. God love is why He has conditions: because He does
not want us to hurt ourselves, others, or our relationship with Him. I hope
my own sons know that if they were to abandon their wives to run off with
someone else that their wives would be welcome in our home, but they would
not until they repented of their sin. Call me a big meanie, but that is what
I call love. It works only because they have had standards ever since they
were children. Today I donât rule over them: I admire
them.
But Jesus said we should count the cost and
gave a few conditions:, âLuke 14:26 If any man come to me,
and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren,
and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come
after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you,
intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost,
whether he have sufficient to finish it?BT: Yes, Izzy, the Gospel
calls for a radical departure from life-as-we-used-to-live-it. Clarification: a radical
departure from sin, from rebellion, from disobedience, (as we used to live
it). But it does not conditionally link this departure to Christ's
love. It is His love on a cross that made it possible to live
faithfully obedient to Him! NOT our OWN goodness! Here you miss the <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">vicarious nature of Christ's
mediation.Of dear, more of those words that I donât understand, that
sound like psychobabble to me: could you please spell out the meaning for
(ignorant) old me, please? J His response is our response. He
takes our feeble efforts, glorifies them and presents them perfected to the
Father. I donât understand the vocabulary again. Are you saying He
takes our sin and makes it presentable to the Father? Surely not. Please
explain with scripture if you can. Knowing this sets us free to be
ever growing in his love. The yoke is easy and the burden light, Izzy,
because we are yoked to him and he is carrying the load. Exactly! Apart from His
indwelling Spirit we cannot obey, we cannot resist sin, we cannot resist the
selfish desires of the flesh! HE makes it all easy, by faith in His
redeeming Blood! The yoke is broken!
At the same time
it calls us to unconditional obedience. In the words of James B. Torrance
(Thomas' younger brother, who died last year at 81) it distinguishes between
"legal repentance" and "evangelical repentance." Please consider his
words:
Legal repentance says: âRepent, and if you repent you
will be forgiven,â as if God is persuaded into being merciful by our acts
of repentance.No, God gave us these conditions. Jesus said in Luke 13:3
AND 13:5: 3 "I tell you, no, but unless you
repent, you will all likewise perish. Here our forgiveness is
conditional upon our deeds of obedience.
BT: I guess I am
missing your point, Izzy. How does this take away from what I've said? The
"repentance" to which Jesus is referring is a repentance from their
rejection of him. If anyone rejects Jesus Christ and the salvation he
provided, and then refuses from that moment on to repent, he or she will
certainly perish.Bill please pay close attention to this: you just ignored
how scripture completely invalidated the statement (above) by JBT. Please
explain how you can accept BOTH statements; JBTâs alongside of
Jesusâ?
Jesus said our
obedience is the âfruitâ of repentance. Matt:3-9:Therefore bear fruit in
keeping with repentance. BT: Did he
now? I just quoted JESUS; did He not???? Please answer this
question, Bill, please: did He not say âTherefore bear fruit in keeping
with repentanceâ?
Enough for now,
Bill. I hope I havenât angered or discouraged you. Please
forgive me for when I have. Sometimes Iâm not good at calculating
the effects of my incredulity or curiosity, or whatever. Izzy
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