Brown is in -- red is out. John ;-)
In a message dated 8/25/2004 6:20:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Izzy replies in red below:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [TruthTalk] Romans 2:12-16
In a message dated 8/23/2004 9:26:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John,
I have been reading Kruger and am not, so far, impressed. But I have decided to withhold judgement until I am finished. However I have a couple of questions for you. (So I can make Lanceâs day so that he can ridicule my ignorance.) (1) What do you see is the difference between Universality and Universalism?
One involves a response from us, the other does not.
What is the difference between that response and works, or obedience?
Imangine hanging a sign that says "justification" next to the oen which reads "works." I put the justification sign before the works sign, others put it after. But, reading the rest of you post, I am not sure that we think differently on this.
(2) You seem to think that those who all go to heaven get the same rewards (ie: heaven), and all those who go to hell get the same judgment (ie:hell). Period. I think that is where this ambiguity is slipping in re: Paulâs epistles. I believe that EVERYONE, regardless of whether they are saved and go to heaven, or lost and go to hell, are going to be judged by their BEHAVIOR/ACTIONS/OBEDIENCE TO GODâS ETERNAL LAWS. What you believe matters not one whit if it contradicts what you DO.
What is the point of the cross if it doesn't KEEP ON CLEANSING US. And if it does, our works are not nearly as important (in terms of "correctness) as our conviction. Do not forget that the vegetarian in Rom 14 was doctrinally wrong but spiritually right.
Our âconvictionâ is reflected in our âworksâ (behavior/actions). Some beliefs (ie vegetarianism) are non-issues re: judgment OR rewards.
I agree with the first sentence. The second -- if it is a teaching from God, it is important.
(Jesus illustrated this in his parable of the servants who said they would
not obey, but did, and those who did visa-versa.) There are different levels of judgement in hell and different levels of glory in heaven, and what we do here and now determines that.
I do not have a theology about degrees of reward or punshment except to know that to re-live my life with my previously happy ex would be hell.
She was happy, but you werenât? I guess making you unhappy made her happy? J
I take the fifth
Those who donât know Jesus at all will be judged upon their behavior (I wonât use Krugerâs big no-no word, âmoralityâ),
Exactly and that is the point of Ro 2:12-16.
just as will those who do know Him.
Maybe in terms of heavenly reward -- but not in terms of ultimate salvation. Only Christ's obedience counts in that regard.
My belief exactly.
Those who donât know Him, but walk
in love and kindness will be judged less severely than those who claim to know Him but a full of hatred and malice.
Salvation (ie: going to heaven) is only received by those who Believe and Obey. If you really believe in Jesus Christâs atoning sacrifice and Lordship over your life, it will be evidenced in your actions.
Certainly, but the "new law" is specfically defined in scripture as the law of faith, the law of love and the law of the Spirit. Which never conflicts, but works hand in glove with the OT Laws. I assume God said all that was specifically necessary on the subject. Therefore, as a fundamentalist liberal, I would reject all other definitions and consider them to be the creations of man. Do you consider the OT Laws to be the âcreations of manâ? And nowhere does God give a specific definition of the New Law or the New Covenant to include a law of works. Will my faith be evidenced in my actions? Certainly. But my faith is the "law," not my works and law, any law, is by definition "that by which we are judged." If you want to include "works" in that by which you are judged (in terms of salvation) go ahead -- but you don't have one chance in seven hundred hells of making it based on your obedience. May I suggest a smoke detector in your burial coffin. Thatâs why we need a Savior, obviously.
If you only say you believe, what you DO will expose your true beliefs.
Absolutely.
For
example, my ex-husband always claimed that he loved me. He also committed adultery and treated me badly. So did he really love me? No, he just loved having me for himselfâhe loved himself, not me. The same is true in our walk with the Lord. Do we really love Him enough to do what makes Him pleased, or do we just love having the salvation and goodies we think He will give us if we (pretend to) love Him?
No one who believes in faith apart from works would disagree with this paragraph. Faith and works are intrically and dynamically attached -- but one is the determining factor in our salvation and the other is not.
Agreed. So how has Kruger influenced your thinking on any of thatâdidnât you believe the same way prior to reading him? Did he just clarify other issues? Izzy
Kruger has really helped in understanding the importance and place of "community" or fellowship. He has helped to "fine tune" my thinking on salavation by grace. I used to believe in works. When I left my church of origin, I realized, shockingly, that there was a world of disciples with faith greater than mine, a realtionship with God that identical to mine, a willingness to serve and die for the same Lord -- the only unifying circumstance among all those beleivers is their faith. They all have verifying works, but some of those works are not the same.
John
Izzy
John
