[TruthTalk] Incarnational/Trinitarian Theology

[Hughes Jonathan]

Hi Terry,   Thank you for asking for clarification.  Let me know if what I say next does not make sense and I will attempt to be clearer.  I appreciate any time I can work on articulating my beliefs.   1)  Always remember the unassumed is the unhealed:  I believe that Christ Who inhabited a human body cleansed it from all impurity in His daily walk with the Spirit.  I believe this includes our sinful nature.  The only way Jesus can give us full healing is if He fully heals us.  If He healed us without touching our sinful nature we would still be sick.  This is the new creation Paul speaks of.  We can live according to our sinful nature (Paul speaks of it as the flesh) or we can embrace what Christ healed and live by the Spirit.  If there is any part of us that has not been taken up in Christ and made new we are lost.  If Jesus only became partly human and did not face life as we face it He cannot truly represent us.  What I am saying is that God's salvation does not leave anything out; it is full, rich, and complete.   2)  Your question is: If Jesus took on himself ALL, why are some few saved and many lost? ( I agree that He died for all that would receive Him, but His sacrifice was wasted by most).  I think we need to redefine what we mean by salvation in light of who Jesus Christ has disclosed Himself as being.  Most of us start with the passages that seem to imply that few are saved instead of starting with the One who does the saving, our Savior.  I am suggesting a radical way of interpreting these type of texts: Begin with who Jesus is and work out our doctrines and proof passages from there.  (By the way this is why we all still love Judy, Izzy and myself.  We begin with who we know they are in Christ, not with the attitudes expressed in their/my posts.  We know how valuable we are in Christ and when it all comes down to it that is what is important).  When we say the name Jesus Christ we are saying God and we are saying humanity and we are saying God and humanity together.  Christ says that He came to take away the sin of the world.  I take Him at His word on this.  I start with His stated purpose in Ephesians chapter one - to adopt us.   In the garden of Eden the most terrible thing occurred.  Satan convinced Adam and Eve that they were separated from God.  All of a sudden we had a huge chasm between God and us.  Now somehow we needed to convince and appease God to accept us.  The God of love who created us now was the God of hate who couldn't stand to even look at us.  We had become despicable to God, unacceptable in His sight.  These lies have been with us ever since.  Most people ignore the fact that God came down to earth after the Fall and clothed Adam and Eve.  He was fully able to spend time with sinners.  He was fully able to love and care for them, to accept them.  Jesus continued this scandalous behavior when He hung out with sinners.  We have a concept in our mind that is completely alien to the Father's heart.  We believe that sin is greater than God, that God's love and acceptance are completely hindered by it.    That sin keeps us from being accepted by God is the biggest lie we have ever been told.  What sin does is keep us from fully working out our relationship with our heavenly Father.  It does not keep us from the relationship itself.  This is what the Pharisees could not understand.  It is what gets Judy all uppity.  In their paradigm God hates not just sin but sinners.  There is no place for God to be fellowshipping with those that have not done the required conditions they have spent so much time making.  If God hates sinners why did he lovingly clothe them?  Why did he remove them from the garden of Eden to ensure that they would not eat from the Tree of Life damning them forever?  If He really hated sinners He could have done that.  But God said NO.  That is not what I created you for!  Why did He fellowship with them when He came as the God-man?  If He really hated them one would think He would ignore them and remove them from fellowship.  Why is it so hard for us to believe that God is for us?  Now this in no way removes the fact that there are grave consequences of sin; however, a relationship with God is not one of them.  This is why Paul states that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.  Jesus is greater than Adam!  Jesus is greater than our sin!  Repentance is when we turn from our sin towards the loving embrace of Jesus.  This is a continual process that we have to do daily.  This continual repentance is not a condition of the gospel; it is a response.  Salvation took place at the cross when Jesus died and rose again.  Paul is clear about this.  When He rose, we rose.  This is why the gospel is good news.    Now I do believe that people can opt out of this.  They can choose to not want anything to do with Jesus.  It is these people that will populate hell.  However the Bible states that all things move and have their being in Jesus, that apart from Him there is nothing.  This must include hell.  This means that hell is not outside of Jesus Christ.   It is not that few are saved.  Rather it is few that come to a knowledge of it, few who believe on what Christ has done for them.  Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension was never a waste.  It is living proof of how strongly God desires us.  It is what leads you and me to worship. Jonathan Hughes From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eye of the Storm Jonathan Hughes wrote: Judy and I disagree on two crucial points: the humanity of Christ.  Judy does not believe that Jesus fully clothed Himself with our humanity, only partially.  Based upon her understanding of Old Testament sacrifices Jesus must be a lamb without spot.  She believes that if Jesus had a sinful nature (i.e. was actually human just like we are and just like scripture states – He could not have been tempted as we were if He did not have a sinful nature) then He would be spotted.  I believe that Jesus had the same sinful nature that you and I have and cleansed it from within in a daily walk with His Father through the Spirit and never sinned (hence I believe He was not spotted as well – a sinful nature is not a spot, actual sin is!).  Always remember the unassumed is the unhealed.  Judy and I also disagree on the extent of what Jesus has done.  I believe Jesus took upon Himself all humanity.  Judy thinks He took upon Himself just a few.  Judy holds that Adam and sin are more powerful than Jesus (the Son of God!) and His work on the Cross and ascension.  In Adam all died, in Jesus all rose again.  Judy rewrites such scriptures to read in Adam all died, and those few who are in Jesus rose again.  I strongly believe that Jesus wants to share His Father’s heart with Judy; that He sent His son to take away the sin of the world, not just to die but to bring us into communion with Him, to dissolve the lie of separation the serpent introduced in the garden.  Amen and all praise to our Father.   Jonathan   Jonathan, some times I find you very difficult to understand.  Please clarify two things for me if you will be so kind. 1.  Just what does the sentence in bold type mean?  I might remember it if I understood it. 2. If Jesus took on himself ALL, why are some few saved and many lost? ( I agree that He died for all that would recieve Him, but His sacrifice was wasted by most) Terry This e-mail and any attachments contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Thank you for your cooperation in connection with the above. Ce courriel ainsi que tous les documents s’y rattachant contiennent de l’information confidentielle et privilégiée. Si vous n’êtes pas le destinataire visé, s.v.p. en informer immédiatement son expéditeur par retour de courriel, effacer le message et détruire toute copie (électronique ou autre). Toute diffusion ou utilisation de cette information par une personne autre que le destinataire visé est interdite et peut être illégale. Merci de votre coopération relativement au message susmentionné.