1) Always remember the unassumed is the
unhealed: I believe that Christ Who inhabited a human body
cleansed it from all impurity in His daily walk with the Spirit. I
believe this includes our sinful nature. The only way Jesus can give us
full healing is if He fully heals us. If He healed us without touching
our sinful nature we would still be sick. This is the new creation Paul
speaks of. We can live according to our sinful nature (Paul speaks of it
as the flesh) or we can embrace what Christ healed and live by the
Spirit. If there is any part of us that has not been taken up in Christ
and made new we are lost. If Jesus only became partly human and did not
face life as we face it He cannot truly represent us. What I am saying
is that God's salvation does not leave anything out; it is full, rich, and
complete.
judyt: If your last sentence is true Jonathan - that is
"God's salvation does not leave anything out and is full, rich, and complete"
then why is there so much physical sickness in those professing godliness in
Him? We are still sick, many with sicknesses unto death.
Howso?
2) Your question is: If Jesus took on himself ALL, why are some few saved and
many lost? ( I agree that He died for all that would receive Him, but His
sacrifice was wasted by most). I
think we need to redefine what we mean by salvation in light of who Jesus
Christ has disclosed Himself as being. Most of us start with the
passages that seem to imply that few are saved instead of starting with the
One who does the saving, our Savior.
judyt: We could start with the words of Our Savior
Himself who said "strait is the gate and narrow is the way and only a few will
find it:" He also said "many are called but only a few are chosen" My
paraphrase since I don't have a Concordance handy, but I'm sure you will get
the point.
I am suggesting a radical way of interpreting these type of
texts: Begin with who Jesus is and work out our doctrines and proof passages
from there. (By the way this is why we all still love Judy, Izzy
and myself. We begin with who we know they are in Christ, not with the
attitudes expressed in their/my posts. We know how valuable we are in
Christ and when it all comes down to it that is what is
important).
judyt: We see even this so differently. I would say that
loving the unlovely (behavior of some) is a point of obedience. We are to love
because he first loved us. We should also separate both ourselves and
others from this type of behavior.with the understanding that we (all of us)
are all works in progress rather than a complete statement
...
When we say the name Jesus Christ we are saying God and
we are saying humanity and we are saying God and humanity
together. Christ says that He came to take away the sin of
the world. I take Him at His word on this. I start with His stated
purpose in Ephesians chapter one - to adopt us.
In the garden of Eden the most terrible thing
occurred. Satan convinced Adam and Eve that they were separated from
God.
judyt: Where did he do this? In my Bible he
deceived Eve into disobeying the clear Word of God and Adam followed suit by
his own choice. Eating from the wrong tree is what separated them from God and
the fact that mankind is still separated today is no lie in
fact understanding this is the first step to receiving the Good
News.
All of a sudden we had a huge chasm between God and
us. Now somehow we needed to convince and appease God to accept
us. The God of love who created us now was the God of hate who couldn't
stand to even look at us. We had become despicable to God, unacceptable
in His sight. These lies have been with us ever
since.
judyt: Amazing Jonathan - You have a whole
"other" doctrine. God has never changed but He can not deny who He is and
He will not violate His Own Word. Since first Eve and then Adam chose to
eat from the other tree, God went along with their choice but they
couldn't have both ATST. Neither can we walk with God while ATST
holding hands with the devil - we must choose this day whom we will
serve.
Most people ignore the fact that God came down to earth
after the Fall and clothed Adam and Eve. He was fully able to spend time
with sinners. He was fully able to love and care for them, to accept
them.
judyt: Where do you get this from Jonathan? Yes he
clothed them, he had to kill the first animal to do so but there was no
walking with them and fellowshipping in the cool of the day and they were
driven from the garden under a curse ..
Jesus continued this scandalous behavior when He hung out
with sinners. We have a concept in our mind that is completely alien to
the Father's heart. We believe that sin is greater than God, that God's
love and acceptance are completely hindered by it.
Jesus hung out with those who didn't know any better.
Once they had been told they had a choice to make and at the end of his
earthly ministry you don't see the multitudes who ate the loaves and the
fishes in the upper room waiting for the Promise do you?
That sin keeps us from being accepted by God is the
biggest lie we have ever been told.
judyt: They why did the prophet Isaiah write "Your
iniquities have made a separation between you and your God so that He has
hidden His face from you" (my wording again) Is isaiah a false prophet and
Baxter Kruger the real thing?
What sin does is keep us from fully working out our
relationship with our heavenly Father. It does not keep us from the
relationship itself. This is what the Pharisees could not
understand. It is what gets Judy all uppity.
judyt: There is no way to work out what you don't have to
begin with. Relationship implies trust. God would have to be a fool to
trust a bunch of devils which is what we are in fellowship with before we
forsake the old and embrace the new (see Ephesians 2).
In their paradigm God hates not just sin but
sinners. There is no place for God to be fellowshipping with those that
have not done the required conditions they have spent so much time
making. If God hates sinners why did he lovingly clothe them? Why
did he remove them from the garden of Eden to ensure that they would not eat
from the Tree of Life damning them forever? If He really hated sinners
He could have done that.
judyt: God clothed them because they knew they were naked
and they were ashamed but clothing the outside didn't change what
had happened to them on the inside. It was not long after this that
Cain murdered his brother and this is why they were removed from the
Garden. Why would God want to spend eternity with devils? They got what
they chose and we get what we choose. Where the Spirit of the Lord is
there is liberty - to go in either direction.
But God said NO. That is not what I created you
for! Why did He fellowship with them when He came as the God-man?
If He really hated them one would think He would ignore them and remove them
from fellowship.
judyt: He didn't fellowship with them - He came to
minister to them and present the truth. Read John 2:24,25 "Jesus did not
commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any
should testify of man; for he knew what was in man" and what do you suppose
that was Jonathan? What was in man that Jesus knew about that kept Him
from committing Himself to them? Remember
relationship implies trust and committment on both
sides.
Why is it so hard for us to believe that God is
for us? Now this in no way removes the fact that there are
grave consequences of sin; however, a relationship with God is not one of
them.
judyt: I don't find it hard to believe that God is for
everyone who comes to Him on His terms Jonathan - and hopefully that is us. At
least I believe I am on His team... but He will not fellowship with and has no
relationship with devils and until we begin to discern between good and evil
and start putting off some things and putting on others there is no
fellowship...thought He loves us and has made provision for us.
This is why Paul states that while we were still sinners
Christ died for us. Jesus is greater than Adam! Jesus is greater
than our sin! Repentance is when we turn from our sin towards the loving
embrace of Jesus. This is a continual process that we have to do
daily. This continual repentance is not a condition of the gospel; it is
a response. Salvation took place at the cross when Jesus died and rose
again. Paul is clear about this. When He rose, we rose. This
is why the gospel is good news.
judyt: This is called Identification and is a doctrine
that came out of the Keswick Conventions in the UK. Partial truth at
best.
Now I do believe that people can opt out of this.
They can choose to not want anything to do with Jesus. It is these
people that will populate hell. However the Bible states that all things
move and have their being in Jesus, that apart from Him there is
nothing. This must include hell. This means that hell is not
outside of Jesus Christ.
judyt: Oh no! Next you will be telling us that the devil
is saved. What the scriptures teach is that Jesus holds the worlds together by
the Word of His Power. God the Father has the idea, Jesus speaks the
Word (He only speaks what he first sees the Father doing), and the Holy Spirit
brings it all together. The Word has already been spoken about hell. It is
created for the devil and his angels and whoever else is in agreement with
them.
It is not that few are saved. Rather it is few that
come to a knowledge of it, few who believe on what Christ has done for
them. Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension was never a
waste. It is living proof of how strongly God desires us. It is
what leads you and me to worship.
judyt: All through the Bible it is the minority who make
it. I'd like to know where you get this other scenario
Jonathan...
jt.
Jonathan Hughes
Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Judy and I disagree
on two crucial points: the humanity of Christ. Judy does not believe
that Jesus fully clothed Himself with our humanity, only partially.
Based upon her understanding of Old Testament sacrifices Jesus must be a
lamb without spot. She believes that if Jesus had a sinful nature
(i.e. was actually human just like we are and just like scripture states –
He could not have been tempted as we were if He did not have a sinful
nature) then He would be spotted. I believe that Jesus had the same
sinful nature that you and I have and cleansed it from within in a daily
walk with His Father through the Spirit and never sinned (hence I believe He
was not spotted as well – a sinful nature is not a spot, actual sin
is!). Always remember the unassumed
is the unhealed. Judy and I also disagree on the extent of
what Jesus has done. I believe Jesus took upon Himself all
humanity. Judy thinks He took upon Himself just a few. Judy
holds that Adam and sin are more powerful than Jesus (the Son of God!) and
His work on the Cross and ascension. In Adam all died, in Jesus all
rose again. Judy rewrites such scriptures to read in Adam all died,
and those few who are in Jesus rose again. I strongly believe that
Jesus wants to share His Father’s heart with Judy; that He sent His son to
take away the sin of the world, not just to die but to bring us into
communion with Him, to dissolve the lie of separation the serpent introduced
in the garden. Amen and all praise to our Father.
Jonathan
Jonathan, some times I find you very difficult to
understand. Please clarify two things for me if you will be so
kind.
1. Just what does the sentence in bold type mean? I might
remember it if I understood it.
2. If Jesus took on himself ALL, why are
some few saved and many lost? ( I agree that He died for all that would
recieve Him, but His sacrifice was wasted by
most)
Terry
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