Why IYO must Christ have a sin nature to destroy the one who had the power of death (a spiritual being) and deliver mankind (also spiritual beings) from the "fear(a spirit) of death" which is a spiritual problem.
There are two somewhat contrasting concepts people focus upon concerning the Atonement. One is that the problem of sin has created a debt or requirement of payment, and that the shedding of blood somehow pays that debt and enables God to forget about the debt. This is an external concept in the sense that there is nothing on the part of men that enables its benefit. Indeed, one might argue from this model that men might not even know that their sins have been atoned for, yet they would receive all the benefits of it automatically, just as if someone paid all their bills without them knowing it.
The other concept is how the shedding of blood effects the conscience of those who consider it. This is an internal concept in the sense that man experiences the remission of his sins because of his response to the knowledge of the gospel. Man hears the gospel and man responds to the gospel in order to experience the remission of his sins. What happens here is that when men behold the life of Christ, their heart and mind is so effected by it that they become transformed. In one sense, they are inspired to live like Christ, but it is more than that. They perceive Jesus Christ to be an ever living intercessor and high priest, leading them to walk in the same life that Jesus did.
This second concept is the one that I tend to emphasize, whereas I suspect that you might be focused in this discussion primarily upon the first concept. The passages we have been discussing all deal with this second concept. It is embedded right there in front of you, but perhaps you overlook it because of the overriding focus you have on God's work in the Atonement rather than man's response to the Atonement. Let's look carefully at the passage in Hebrews:
Hebrews 2:14-18
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
(18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Here we see the following elements being discussed:
1. It is the internal fear of death that made man unable to have victory over sin.
2. Christ's humanity made him a merciful and faithful high priest to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Why? Because ...
3. By his own experience of suffering the trial of temptation, he is able to succor them that are tempted. In other words, he is able to help those of us who experience the trial of temptation.
Clearly, the emphasis here concerning the remission of sin and our victory over sin is one that involves our reaction to a high priest who is our own flesh and blood brother, being made like us in every way. It is by our identification with him, being immersed in him and in his humanity, that we receive power over sin. We gain confidence that death has no hold on us, and we gain confidence that the strength of sin has been destroyed. As we see in the following passage, the sting of death is sin. Once that problem has been dealth with in our mind and inner conscience, as it is when we come to understand the humanity and frailty of a victorious Jesus, then we ourselves experience victory over sin.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The law is represented here as giving strength to sin. This works primarily through the fact that men have a consciousness of impending death. It is a problem of the conscience. When men perceive that death will soon enough be upon them, they do not resist the working of sin within them. In such a situation, the law works primarily to aggravate the sin principle within them, and they succomb to its power. The opposite works in the lives of those who perceive that Jesus Christ, being made like us in every way, overcame sin and overcame death. When we are able to believe that, there is a mind and motivation within us to destroy the works of Satan even as Christ did. That cannot happen if we Deify Christ in such a way that he is no longer our brother and no longer truly human.
Look at how Romans 8 also focuses upon the human response to the work of Christ's Atonement. It emphasizes how they "walk not after the flesh" and how they "walk after the Spirit." This happens because Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemning in the conscience of men the working of sin, that righteousness might work through them. In other words, the work of Christ here concerns man's inner self, his conscience, and it is his response to the gospel through faith that results in the remission of his sins.
Romans 8:1-4
(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Perhaps a consideration of Baptism might help you see how this works. Christian Baptism, like the Atonement, also is said to be for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16), but how does this work? Is it by some magical work of the water removing sin? No, it is by the effect which baptism has upon the conscience. When men and women enter into baptism with the faith that their sins are being washed away and that sin no longer holds any power over them, either in this life or the next, then they truly experience the remission of their sins.
"... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:21)
If you can see how baptism works the remission of sins primarily through man's inner response, then you should be able to see how in like manner the shedding of blood likewise effects the remission of our sins in the same way.
Judy Taylor wrote:
Reality says there is no way for the seed of the first Adam to approach a holy God aside from the shedding of blood and this has been so from the first covering in the garden. So if Jesus was born in the same kind of iniquity and sin as the rest of us he would need a blood sacrifice or covering as well. Just wondering how you deal with this.
This kind of thinking is Calvinism. It is the idea that men and women are born into the world condemned to death, and this, of course, has led to the practice of infant baptism as a remedy to the problem of Original Sin.
I believe in the concept of Original Sin, but not as it has been explained by John Calvin. I do not believe that innocent, unborn children require a blood sacrifice in order to approach God. I believe that the blood sacrifice becomes necessary once a person has committed actual sin. Do you understand the difference?
Therefore, while I believe that Jesus Christ was born into the same kind of sinful flesh that the rest of us have experienced, I do not believe that he required a blood sacrifice or atonement in order for him to approach God. In fact, I would argue that his life is evidence against the Calvinism that teaches that babies are born in a guilty state before God.
I could be wrong about all this, but that is my current understanding of these matters. If you would like to argue otherwise, please bring forth the passages of Scripture which would teach your viewpoint. I would like to study any Scriptures you might offer that would teach that mankind is born into this world guilty and requires blood sacrifice from day one of his life.
Judy Taylor wrote:
His testimony was "that he was from above" the rest of us are dust, earthly.
Jesus was from above, but that statement does not mean that his flesh and blood body was from above. The body of Jesus when he was born into this world was just as much dust as your body is now.
Being from above means that his spirit pre-existed with the Father. He did not begin his existence at his earthly birth as others did.
Judy Taylor wrote:
He was born in the LIKENESS and FOUND IN FASHION as a man. However, Satan had nothing in him which can not be said for any of us.
Why would you claim that Satan has something in everybody? I believe that there are many today in whom Satan has nothing. In Acts 19:15, the evil spirits indicate that Satan had nothing in Paul just as they had nothing in Christ Jesus.
"And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" (Acts 19:15)
David Miller wrote:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was ever sick? Did he experience the kinds of sickness and disease that many of us have experienced, such as colds, headaches, the flu, infections, etc.?
Judy Taylor wrote:
I don't believe so David. I don't believe he had to cancel one missionary journey or meeting because of sickness. However, he did need to eat and rest and retire by himself to spend time with the Father.
Consider Isaiah 53 again:
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief ("choliy"): and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs ("choliy"), and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
(Isaiah 53:2-4)
The Hebrew word translated "grief" and "griefs" here is "choliy." In the KJV, it is translated 13 times as sick, sickness, or sicknesses, 7 times as disease, and 4 times as grief or griefs.
For example, the following two passages translate the same word as "sickness":
And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick ("chalah"); and his sickness ("choliy") was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
(1 Kings 17:17)
And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness ("choliy"), and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
(Deuteronomy 7:15)
I take Isaiah 53:3 to mean that Jesus Christ did indeed experience illness and disease, just as other men have. This is what makes him such a great high priest. Jesus Christ experienced all the fraility and temptations that I have. He is truly a worthy big brother who I can trust in with all my heart and strength.
Peace be with you. David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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