Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag

[David Miller]

Hi Bill.  Thanks for the informative response.  For the most part, I think we are in agreement.  There are a few areas where we differ, so here are some points of clarification:   1.  You never answered my question about whether the use of force is appropriate in the situation of protecting your wife.  We really can't extend any analogies until I know the answer concerning what you believe is right to do in that situation.  Can you please answer this question for me?   2.  My argument is not from silence of Scripture unless you consider only the Greek Scriptures to be Scripture.  The Hebrew Scriptures clearly teach the concepts I have shared.   3.  My point was not to justify rebellion, but to show that war and the overthrow of government is part of God's overall plan.   4.  Another point I made concerned the idea that the axiom of "submit to those in authority" is based upon the axiom, "the powers that be are ordained of God."  Therefore, exceptions exist in the higher axiom when God appoints new powers in place of old ones.  This concept comes from the book of Daniel.    5.  Daniel learned from the writings of Jeremiah that to resist Babylon anytime within the next 70 years was futile.  The apostles understood that a time frame also existed for the Roman Empire, and to resist it prior to that time would be futile.  So your speculation that I would think the early Christians had a right to rebel is wrong.  What legitimizes the overthrow of a government is not whether subjects believe they have a right to rebel, but whether God has ordained for that government to be overthrown by the ones who he raises up to overthrow it.  Remember my past posts mentioning Cyrus?    6.  My reason for bringing in the concept of love was not to justify a reason for when rebellion can be done legitimately, but to understand the logical necessity of it when ruling powers wickedly oppress those whom God loves.  The timing of such overthrows are not up to man.  The time is completely in God's hands, but that does not mean that he does not use men to do it.  The Scriptures are clear that he anoints men to do this task.   7.  Your comment about it being wrong to stand up in the Coliseum and say "this is wrong" surprised me.  What is your opinion of St. Telemachus?  Do you condemn him for doing this very thing?  He is considered by many to be the pivotal point that caused the barbaric practices of the Coliseum to stop.  Was his martyrdom wrong and contrary to God, in your opinion?   8.  I consider it to be a very important Christian principle for men to stand up to our society and declare when it is wrong.  Jesus did it in the Temple, seemingly every Passover if we "read between the lines."  This Temple cleaning action was a major thing that led to his crucifixion.  This work of declaring right and wrong is what brings persecution upon the saints.  If we just let everybody have their way, nobody would ever crucify us for anything.  The world would love us.  How then would it be fulfilled that it is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God?   Peace be with you. David Miller.