Let's do 'thing thing' in stages. Please distinguish between 'rational' and 'rationalist'. Tell me which of the two you are.You might also take a run at 'evidence' and 'evidentialist'. You might also go way back in the archives in order to read once more those three complete posts I submitted. Two of them were by Torrance and one by Turgonev/Houston. This MAY shorten the whole 'exercise' at hand.
Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: December 30, 2004 08:57 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The logical nature of Truth > ** Lance, this is a long post, but please consider it carefully. This is > important to me and important for how we can discuss truth with one another > in this forum. > > David Miller wrote: > >> You aren't taking the position of Lance that > >> truth is sometimes irrational and illogical, are > >> you? :-) > > Lance wrote: > > David has just misrepresented my position. > > I'm confident that it's a combination of my writing > > (mostly) and David's reading (he's another one who > > from time to time IMO really quite misses the > > point being made). So, David, why not leave off > > invoiking [sic] my name and, just address the speaker > > and the speaker's point. > > Thank you for the clarification here, Lance. Please clarify more because I > truly thought you took this position. Let me document why. I'm not > documenting this to prove that I am right in what I said, but to help you > understand why I said what I said. This way you can better clarify your > position to me and others on the list. > > I think this is important for me to invoke you name and state your position > on this because it greatly influences how we proceed in our discussions. If > truth is not always rational from your perspective, then I can understand > why some of you get upset when a rational argument proves you wrong. > However, if you do consider that truth is always logical and rational, then > it may be more important for me to stress a little bit stronger your > inconsistencies of logic in the beliefs that you hold. > > We had a discussion earlier this month that started under the subject line > of "Trapped in the Flag." Following are some sections from that. The > subject line was soon changed to "Is Truth always rational?." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:55 PM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > David Miller wrote: > > I do not believe that reason and logic are necessarily > > the primary sources of truth, but I believe that all truth > > will align with reason and logic. In other words, truth > > will not be found to be illogical and unreasonable. > > If an assertion is found to be illogical, it may be discarded > > as a falsehood. > > Your response to this post was: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 6:54 AM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > Lance wrote: > > David: How does one account for: > > THE ILLOGIC OF GRACE? > > Slade's response was: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: December 04, 2004 11:11 > > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > David Miller wrote: > >> Dave said: ...all truth will align with reason and logic... > >> [and] ...truth will not be found to be illogical and > >> unreasonable... > Slade wrote: > > SLADE: Are you sure about this? > > What about the "foolishness of Messiah?" > > Then Lance responded to this exchange with: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 11:29 AM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > Lance wrote: > > IMO this is FALSE. David: You speak volumes through > > this personal utterance. Please say more to clarify so that > > I may come to know that you do not mean what I take > > you to mean. Please do not commence by asking me > > what I think you mean (thanks). > > Then I responded to your earlier statement with the following: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: December 04, 2004 13:37 > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > Lance wrote: > >> David: How does one account for: > >> THE ILLOGIC OF GRACE? > David Miller wrote: > > I don't know what you mean. > > Grace seems very logical to me. > > Then Lance responded with the following: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:29 PM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Trapped in the Flag > Lance wrote: > > Will someone with the 'gift' of interpretation intervene? > > IMO the Grace of God and logic, as I understand it, > > have nothing to do with one another. > > At this point, the subject line was changed to, "Is Truth always rational?." > The rest of that thread can be followed easily under that subject line. > Some examples of the discussion are as follows: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:22 PM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational? > > Right on, Slade. > Bill Taylor wrote: > > There is a way of knowing that is both distinct from and > > broader than accepted categories of reason. Or as Pascal > > put it, "The heart has its reasons, that reason cannot know." > > > > Moreover, it is faith and not logic that is the requisite to all > > meaningful discourse, even when the object of that faith is > > something other than Jesus Christ himself. Now, how > > illogical is that? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 1:37 AM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational? > John Smithson wrote: > > ... > > Resurrection from the dead is not logical. > > The baptism of the Spirit is not only illogical, > > but almost impossible to even explain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lance Muir > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Truth always rational? > Lance wrote: > > IS TRUTH ALWAYS RATIONAL? > > Most assuredly NOT! > > To say otherwise is to fall prey to a deception. > > What is that deception? That deception is the > > employment of that logic which functions well > > WITHIN THE COSMOS within God. Same > > thing applies IMO with respect to the conscience. > > The next day, this thread ended. This was your last direct answer to our > discussion thread of, "Is Truth always rational." So how is my statement > about your belief false? My statement said that you believe that truth is > sometimes irrational. You say it right above here, "IS TRUTH ALWAYS > RATIONAL? Most assuredly NOT!" > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > p.s. Please do not think that I am trying to argue, "I was right!" I'm > not. I want to understand your position on the logical and rational nature > of Truth. You may be inclined to ignore this post because of its length, > but this subject is VERY important to me. I have a hard time understanding > how to have a serious discussion with you guys if truth is sometimes > irrational. Now you seem to be saying that this is misrepresenting your > perspective. Please, let us come to an understanding here. I am a > rationalist who believes that faith is inherently logical, even when those > in the world cannot perceive the evidence necessary for the logic to work > for them. This is because the evidence is primarily internal rather than > external, because it is spiritual in nature, and therefore it is a > subjective truth rather than an objective truth. In fact, I often preach on > university campuses on the nature of subjective truth and objective truth > because our educational systems teach only objective truth. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
