Think red -----------jd
jt: I have no hidden meanings Lance, it is recorded in the book of Genesis and the results are evident all through the
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 11:52:52 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 1/1/2005 7:44:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
remaining 65 books. Without a fall the need for a redemption would be non existent.
jd writes: An interesting observation. It appears that Adam and his lovely, had the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all.
jt: Not so A&E were created as adults in the image of God who does not have the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all. \Eve was deceived by listening and responding to the wrong voice; Adam chose the lovely over God.
Actually, the biblical message says that God created mankind in this "image"
jt: Where does it say that? "Let us make mankind in our image. Male and felmale created he them" He did create A&E in his image. After the fall they were no longer reflecting God's image. Not true -- they were even more like God after the violation (Gen 3:22) " See, man has become as one of us, to know good and evil ... " They were full of shame and fear and needed a covering. Not long after this we see the first murder. Seth is the one the godly line proceeds through and Seth was made in the image of Adam rather than God. By one man sin entered the world and death through sin. [Romans 5:12] ".... for all have sinned." We share in the adamic curse because we do what he did --------------------- sin.
jd: What we see as the "fall" (a nonbiblical term, by the way) may be nothing more than what happened to people who were created to be just like the rest of mankind (except for that navel thingy) after the first legal "violation."
jt: I see you also have a good imagination John. The words fall, falling, and fallen are all over the Bible but since you don't like it, how about the word transgression"? BC&V please.
jd: Would you take the time, Judy, to given me a scripture?
jt: "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear".[Isaiah 59:2]
"If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" [Psalm 66:18]
Let's try this again, Judy. My question is, Can you give me scripture that establishes that man's nature changed, that he became something other than what he was at the time of his creation -- the fallen nature of man is what is in view here. I am saying, and I know I am the only one saying this, but what I am saying is this: what you see as the "fallen nature" is man, in this world, as he is and always will be apart from the influence of God. The "image of God" cannot mean that man (or Adam, if you will) could not possibly sin -- but that is a fundamental aspect of God's nature; He is not temptable. We are. Adam was. And because we are and Adam was , I believe Adam was just like me. There is one exception. He was never a child. Violation of God's expressed will (law) was an adult consideration. We grow up making these decisions from the earliet of days. He didn't. For him, this was a first time, for real. Never for us.
What follows below is a series of question that find you in a difficult way. It seems as though you do not want to answer them. Your answers are not the typical Judy Taylor write it in stone and throw back at cha kind of answer we have all grown to know and love.
jd: Have you completed the race or are you still in pursuit of that prize? Is God done with you?
jt: According to scripture Christ is the prize and if we win the prize we gain Him. But it's impossible to win if one is not in the race to start with. Yes or no -- which is it? I really do not know.
jd: Do we all have need for further definition as humans and (a need) for a deeper walk with God? Absolutely.
jt: Especially those who are not in any kind of walk with God to begin with [there is just ONE way to the Father] Is my question true for you? It is for me. Yes or no.
jd: So you agree with my statement above ending with "Absolutely." ????
jt: I'm not sure why the word "absolutely" belongs there. Forget the word. Do we agree.
jd: I believe that Adam and the Seventh Rib were never created as an end of a creation event.
jt: This is conjecture and can only ever be speculation. Yes -- but with more reason, I think, than what has not been presented in defense of the "fallen nature of man" in our discussion.
jd: You don't think Christ's sacrifice reached back for those in olden times?
jt: I believe the righteous dead will be raised in Him. Not every dead person, only the "righteous" which are the ones He claims. OK. So those in the old scriptures were not complete without His ultimate partnership. We agree.
jd: This First Couple of Love were completed in the Incarnation.
jt: Or the resurrection, since they were possibly some of the spirits who rose with him out of Paradise/Abraham's bosom; however
they were not incomplete before the fall which you deny. So, was man created to ultimtely exist in the heavenly places or not. Are you saying that Adam was created for the Garden, then he sinned and heaven through Christ became the destiny? Wouldn't that make heaven the second and lesser choice?
John
