Re: [TruthTalk] The place of creeds in relation to truth

[Judy Taylor]

Lance writes: The _expression_:'the fall' (a non-biblical term by the way)   jt: Non biblical?? Only if you don't read the Bible or do not have understanding of same from God.   is your Smithsonian counterpart to the Seinfeldian  'not that there's anything wrontg with that"   jt: Had to ask my husband about your Seinfeld quote - Surely you know better than that Lance, sigh! Will you ever be serious and sober minded in your pursuit of Truth? Are you pursuing Truth? From: Judy Taylor   On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:43:16 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Think red --jd - Judyt plum jt: Not so A&E were created as adults in the image of God who does not have the same emotions and weaknesses that are common to all. Eve was deceived by listening and responding to the wrong voice; Adam chose the lovely over God. jd: Actually, the biblical message says that God created mankind in this "image"   jt: Where does it say that?   jd: "Let us make mankind in our image.   Male and felmale created he them"     jt: Adam and Eve were mankind the rest of us were procreated through them.   jt: He did create A&E in his image. After the fall they were no longer reflecting God's image.   jd:  Not true  --  they were even more like God after the violation  (Gen 3:22)   "  See, man has become as one of us, to know good and evil  ...    "    jt: Wait a minute John - are you saying that God was holding out on them? That there was some part of His image that He kept from them until they agreed with the voice of the adversary and died spiritually? So why did God act immediately to keep them from eating from the tree of Life if they were now so like Him? You'd think that this would please Him. We like to see our kids in agreement with us don't we?   jt:  They were full of shame and fear and needed a covering. Not long after this we see the first murder. Seth is the one the godly line proceeds through and Seth was made in the image of Adam rather than God. By one man sin entered the world and death through sin. [Romans 5:12]     jd: ".... for all have sinned."   We share in the adamic curse because we do what he did   ---    sin.  jt: Sure we do by agreeing with the adversary just like he did with our fist in the face of God's holiness. jd: What we see as the "fall"  (a nonbiblical term, by the way) may be nothing more than what happened to people who were created to be just like the rest of mankind (except for that navel thingy) after the first legal "violation."  jt: I see you also have a good imagination John.  The words fall, falling, and fallen are all over the Bible but since you don't like them, how about the word transgression"?    jd: BC&V please.  jt: People who fall, are falling, or have fallen from grace are separated from God because they have transgressed his law in some way and death reigned from Adam to Moses. jd: Would you take the time, Judy, to given me a scripture?  jt: "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you,         so that He will not hear".[Isaiah 59:2]          "If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" [Psalm 66:18] jd: Let's try this again, Judy.  My question is, Can you give me scripture that establishes that man's nature changed,  that he became something other than what he was at the time of his creation   --    the fallen nature of man is what is in view here.      jt: Well let's see, at the time of his creation he was in God's image which is Life and Light because God is light and in Him is no darkness or shadow of turning.  However, because of Adams transgression: 1 Cor 15:22 "As in Adam all die"   jd: I am saying,    and I know I am the only one saying this,  but what I am saying is this:   what you see as the "fallen nature"  is man, in this world, as he is and always will be apart from the influence of God.     jt: Yes, and this is because he is fallen in the first Adam. The condemnation he is under is because he does not choose to know God and he refuses to come to the light because his deeds are evil.   jd: The "image of God" cannot mean that man (or Adam, if you will) could not possibly sin  --   but that is a fundamental aspect of God's nature;   He is not temptable.     jt: Then this fundamental aspect blows your eternal Son doctrine because Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and if I am understanding correctly you claim that he is and has always been God.   jd: We are.   Adam was.    And because we are and Adam was  ,    I believe Adam was just like me.   There is one exception.   He was never a child.     jt: Yes, he was and we are all born in the first Adam. This is why every one of us needs a Savior/Redeemer.   jd: Violation of God's expressed will (law) was an adult consideration.    We grow up making these decisions from the earliet of days.    He didn't.   For him,  this was a first time, for real.   Never for us. jt: What difference does it make when?  Even a child can be known by what he does. God only gave the law to begin with because of transgressions and so that he wouldn't have to wipe out the "known" world all over again. jd: What follows below is a series of question that find you in a difficult way.   It seems as though you do not want to answer them.   Your answers are not the typical Judy Taylor write it in stone and throw back at cha kind of answer we have all grown to know and love.    jt: If the above is what you have been perceiving John then you and whoever "we have all" includes has been listening to another voice because it is a misrepresentation and not my heart. jd: Have you completed the race or are you still in pursuit of that prize?   Is God done with you?    jt: According to scripture Christ is the prize and if we win the prize we gain Him. But it's impossible to win if one is not in the race to start with.     jd: Yes or no  -- which is it?  I really do not know.   jt: Are you serious John? If Paul who wrote 2/3 of the NT at the end of his ministry said "Not that I have already attained" Why would you even think that I might have or is it a trick question? jd: Do we all have need for further definition as humans and (a need) for a deeper walk with God?   Absolutely.   jt: Especially those who are not in any kind of walk with God to begin with [there is just ONE way to the Father]    Is my question true for you?   It is for me.  Yes or no.  jt: I don't know what you mean by "definition as a human" but I'm all for a deeper walk with God but this only comes through obedience to Christ. jd: So you agree with my statement above ending with "Absolutely."  ????   jt: I'm not sure why the word "absolutely" belongs there.    jd: Forget the word.  Do we agree.   jd: We agree on the deeper walk with God but probably not about how this comes about. jd: I believe that Adam and the Seventh Rib were never created as an end of a creation event.  jt: This is conjecture and can only ever be speculation.    jd: Yes  -- but with more reason, I think, than what has not been presented in defense of the "fallen nature of man" in our discussion.    jt: After the seven days of Creation both A&E and the animals multiplied by procreation where would you get the idea that it was otherwise? jd: You don't think Christ's sacrifice reached back for those in olden times?   jt: I believe the righteous dead will be raised in Him.  Not every dead person, only the "righteous" which are the ones He claims.   jd: OK.    So those in the old scriptures were not complete without His ultimate partnership.   We agree.  jd: This First Couple of Love were completed in the Incarnation.   jt: Or the resurrection, since they were possibly some of the spirits who rose with him out of Paradise/Abraham's bosom; however they [the first couple] were not incomplete before the fall which you deny.     jd: So, was man created to ultimtely exist in the heavenly places or not.   Are you saying that Adam was created for the Garden, then he sinned and heaven through Christ became the destiny?   Wouldn't that make heaven the second and lesser choice?    jt: I'm not sure that heaven is my destiny even now because I read in Revelation that God will cleanse both heaven and earth and that there will be a new heaven along with a new earth. Are you sure where mankind will spend eternity? All I know is that my desire is to spend it with Him.