Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me

[Bill Taylor]

John wrote  >  when, exactly, was the prodigal saved?   When he came to himself?   When he turned and started the trek home?   When he saw his father?   When he came to the door of the house?   When he entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal?   I say  --   in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud,  coming to himself.     I say he was the father's son throughout. The fact that the father was always looking for his son's return ought to tell us that the son was accepted and loved and considered a son throughout. Repentance brought the son to his senses; it did not make him a son. Repentance brings us to our senses; it does not make us sons or daughters of God. Adopted in Christ, we are already His children.   Bill     ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me In a message dated 1/9/2005 10:52:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:43:50 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH:  ???   Do you believe one can be saved without obedience to repentance? John: Aaahhhhh.   My first real question after stating that I know what I believe.  What we might call "obedience",  which would include repentance, doing good,  confession, visiting the widows and the fatherless, taking communion and the like, are things we do because we have been saved  --   because we are already involved with God.  jt: Say John, this is a discussion isn't it?  It's not just a "wise one" (like a guru or something) taking questions and giving answers - right? Read my first post in this thread (of mine) and the above question will be seen as a waste of effort.  I am not the one on this list who speaks excethedra, Judy.  I'd say 'obedience' goes much deeper than the things you list above which are all outward. God desires truth in the "inward parts" and anyone who claims to be saved by the faith of Jesus ought to be walking the same walk as Jesus and doing what he did. Jesus said "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God....Then said he, Lo I come to do thy will, O God..." (Hebrews 10:7,9).  So how does one claim to be saved by Jesus' faith and ATST reject obedience?  Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Right on.   That passage in Philip 2:12,13 is critical to me.     "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12,13)   The notion that "no man comes to the Son except the Father draw him" ( a paraphrase of John 6:44) is explained in this passage ------------   "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44) ....It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." So far, we are on the same page, my Child.  --- "work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God at work in you both to will and do His good pleasure."   BOTH TO WILL AND TO PERFORM.      Sure John, but (see above) first one must hear and learn and be taught of God before they are able to 'come to Jesus' and many are hearing and learning from a polluted well. So many are waiting that pracher to show and tell.  There is a sense, a very real sense, that God is a part of our lives already.   When Chrsit speaks of the children, he says ".... for such is the Kingdom  ......."    He is talking about their trust and faith in someone higher than themselves.... He is talking about kids   -   not to deny your conclusion above.    God is already there.  He created us, He draws us unto Himself,  if you believe that Christ is God Manifested and Defined;   He is the influence that wills good works,  He is power that performs those good works. What we are doing when we repent or confess or feed the poor  --  is this:   we are responding to the God within.   Both New Agers and 12 Step Programs teach that we have a Higher Power residing within. Are you speaking of the same thing here John? Like Shirley Maclaine when she stood on the sand at Malibu raised her arms heavenward and said "I am God" - is not such a great leap from this kind of thinking.... If you go back to my post,  you will find scripture that reveals what I was talking about.   I never reference New Age or 12 step programs as a source of "truth."  But you know that.  In view of the scriptures above, how could we not think and believe that our actions or God's actions.   I am not saved by that response  -- rather, I am saved by that relationship.   The reponses just happen.   Really? And what if there is no godly fruit in the life - what then?  This is what I believe and said    I loose my salvation when I move to serve myself and in so doing, deny the very Image I am.  I am destroyed in serving self.  Does that sound as though I believe that Christ in me will not produce godly fruit?   I certainly do not mean it that way.    For instance let's look at Amber Frey who is well known and in the news right now.  She was raised a Baptist, went to Church and SS but lacked a godly example at home. Still she was taught in God's Word. As a teen she became pg and had an abortion which so traumatized her she vowed never to do that again.  Later in an affair with a man barely separated who had a pg wife she became pg again and insisted upon carrying this baby to term even tho he wasn't ready to be a dad. Then came Scott Peterson and a seduction on their first date along with the public humiliation and all that .. but even before Amber witnessed at the trial she was fornicating again (with the son of this "wonderful Christian couple") and was pg by another fellow who was 'not ready to be a dad'. This girl is obviously hurting and has obvious spiritual problems but in her book Amber quotes scripture all over the place. She talks of attending Chosen Woman meetings and Bible Studies.  She sent Scott Peterson "The Purpost Driven Life" book as a witness to him in prison. Note: I admire the girls honesty and the fact that she was willing to put her life out there warts and all but what kind of a witness for Christ is this? Are Amber's actions God's actions?  Dosen't he say "fornicators don't inherit the Kingdom?".  I know that what she does is wrong.   But I also know that she is no different than me   (Romans 2:1ff).   That is what I KNOW.   Is she lost or saved   --   depends upon whether she is growing or not.    Is she a carnal Christian  --  it would appear so.   But a carnal Saint is a saint, nonetheless.   An obedience to repentance?  If you mean, by that, actions that demonstrate a change of heart/mind, my answer is the same.   The prodigal son demonstrates this obedience to repentance, does he not?   But why did he turn around?   Two reasons.   1) he was headed in the wrong direction  --   leaving his community and moving away for the expressed purpose of serving himself.   Correct?   2)  He turns around because there is a reason to turn around  --    a father who is already there.   A home.   An inheritance.  A life.   Acceptance without question.  Forgiveness without reservation.   He is 'saved" when he stops serving himself and begins the quest for expressed community and all the benefits that are associated with community.   Nothing is said at all about community in the Parable of the prodigal son so you are adding what is not there. The word "forgiveness" is also not found in the text.   So what?   Father, home, brother, blessings  --  are all "community"  just as acceptance by the father IS forgiveness.  Much to do about nothing ???? Since the Father did not follow the son into the pigpen to try and talk him into coming back or bless him into coming back (he was obviously cursed and in poverty there) So the Father does not overtake the will of the son?   Would we say that the father standing on the porch, the blessings of the home,  love and acceptance within the doors of that dwelling constituted a "draw" that brought the prodigal home???  what this parable demonstrates is that there must be "repentance without regret" before there can be "forgiveness without reservation"  Don't forget there is also a community in the pigpen out there. All you describe above is  what a statement of reality.   As long as one is serving only self,  moving away from the Lord in a deliberate way, there is little that God can do.   I think more germain to our discussion is this question:   when, exactly, was the prodigal saved?   When he came to himself?   When he turned and started the trek home?   When he saw his father?   When he came to the door of the house?   When he entered therein or when or accepted and particiated in the meal?   I say  --   in the pit, with the swine, covered with mud,  coming to himself.  It just dawned on me  --   the child is not lost at birth, born into sin and all that; rather, he is saved and then lost in self serving crap, and then saved as he responds to what is already his, crucifies himself,   and chooses to live the life he was created to live.  What do you think about THAT !!!!  ?? Unscriptural John.  The scriptures teach that before the foundation of the world everyone has their name written in the Lamb's Book of Life. However, this does not insure salvation unless one can keep it from being blotted out.  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is an eternal truth So rather than get all tangled up with saved, not saved, saved, not saved. Wouldn't we be wiser to learn what God call's sin and stop doing it? Interesting scripture, Judy.   Our names are in that book from the beginning.  Wow.  I had forgotten this passage.   Do you see God erasing some of these names?  I don't.   Judyt