Dave,
You have pulled this conversation way off track. You have not addressed the point that you initially made, which I countered. You brought up bullhorns and street preachers, I did not. Let me try to get this thing back on track here.
Summarizing, I asked how Mormons could best be evangelized.
You said "praying".
I asked you to show me some scripture that says that praying is how to bring people to faith.
You responded with a verse about praying for wisdom. It had the word "pray" in it, so perhaps you thought it answered the question.
I said that, while praying was good, that the BIble does not say that is how people come to faith. Romans 10 clearly tells how people come to faith...by preaching.
You did not respond to this.
This answer I am looking for goes something like, "Gee, Perry, you are right. Paul tells us right there in Romans 10 that we are to preach the gospel to bring people to faith. And, you are also right in that I can find no scripture that says people are brought to faith by praying for them."
But instead you have dodged these issues by quoting a non-relevant Bible verse, as well as some JS musings, and brought up unrelated issues. If you have found no scripture stating that praying for people is what brings them to faith, say so! If you agree with what Paul says about preaching in Romans 10 bringing people to faith, say so. If you disagree with Paul, tell me why. Please don't waste my time with red herrings and smoke screens.
If you need it in the form of interrogatives, as you have stated you need in the past, then here are the quesions:
1. Do you know of anywhere in the Bible where it states that praying for people is what brings them to faith?
2. Do you agreee with Paul in Romans 10, that faith comes by hearing, and hearnig by the the Word of God, and that the Word of God is heard via preachers, and that preachers are sent for that purpose?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [TruthTalk] Prayer in Evangelism Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:39:13 -0800
DAVEH: I've changed the subject line to more accurately reflect the topic....
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Please show me the scriptures that says one comes to faith by praying for them.
DAVEH: Why do you need that any more than you need a scripture from those street preachers who think they should use a bull horn to preach, Perry?
Using voice amplification is normal in environments with high background noise, and I don't consider that either a moral or ethical issue.
DAVEH: You missed the point. Why do you want me to provide a scriptural reference for prayer, yet you don't seem to need one for bullhorns? If you think bullhorns are necessary to preach without Biblical support, and prayer is not....that is your prerogative. Just turn up the gain control, and ignore the quiet voice from within.
I am not saying this does not or cannot happen, I just would like some references.
DAVEH: OK. For those who lack an understanding of how to preach......
Thanks for that comment, Dave.
DAVEH: You are welcome, Perry. It does make me wonder why you and Kevin would seek the advice of a tired old Mormon boy to learn how to preach though.
*If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. * Js 1:5
Okay, so if you want wisdom, pray for it...how does that demonstrate that prayer brings people to faith?
DAVEH: If you don't think prayer will help bring people to faith, then don't do it, Perry. LDS folks use prayer to help them find those who are wanting, needing and seeking faith. If you don't think it would be appropriate for street preachers to use LDS methods of evangelism, that's OK with me.
.......Furthermore, the Lord has also suggested it is important to .......
**Be thou humble; and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers.** D&C 112:10
Which Lord, mine or yours? Oh, that comes fromt he D&C...you mean your lord. Mine didn't say that. JS did.
DAVEH: Ohhhhhhhhh.......yeah, I hadn't considered you think that way, Perry. Maybe it doesn't apply to street preachers, eh.....
.......So, I ponder how effective any preacher can be if they fail to adopt a stance of humility in their approach.
You have not answered my request for a scriptural reference on the topic, and have totally dodged the scripture reference I gave to preaching. If you dont have a direct answer, just say so. It's easy...
DAVEH: If you don't like the scriptures I offered inferring prayer is a useful tool, or the advice of how LDS folks use prayer to evangelize......no problem, Perry. Just continue on preaching as you think is appropriate. Who am I to argue with your methods..... It just saddens me that there may be non Christian folks who find the antics of some street preachers to not be very appealing, causing them to view Christianity in a skewed perspective.
Ignorance -> Preacher -> Hearing -> Word of God -> Faith.
That is what street preachers do. I am sure they pray, too, but the Bible says to preach the Word of God.
DAVEH: I guess that's where I am missing the message, Perry. Too often it seems that the WofG is obscured by the antics.
According to Romans 10, the gospel is to be preached to bring peopel to faith.
Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel, but that is not what he claims brings them to faith:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Stirring up the fallow ground-used to be What is a Ch ristian?
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:56:17 -0800
DAVEH: Prayer.....
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Good question!
*/Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
Blaine, please tell us what evangelical approach would work best with
Mormons, especially at the General Conference. Help us out here.
Thanks, Perry
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html>
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