Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please

[Kevin Deegan]

DAVE SAYS Heavenly Father is the Man part of the title for Jesus, who is the Son of Man.

Jesus is the son of God Jesus is the son of man in the sense that he was Born of a woman and as fulfilled prophecy as "son of man" Dan 7

If Jesus was refering to be the son of man, in the sense that you use it,  "in that Jesus' Father is a man" (QUOTE DAVE) That father in being a man must have had a father who was a man ... infinitum. Mormon theology does not work here since God has told us

1) I am not a man, I am God

2) I am not the son of man

Num 23 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it?

Hos 11:9 I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee

Jesus is the Man who knew NO sin

2 Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

The term "son of man" is always used of Flesh not God Ezek is addressed thus more than 90 times, in these verses he is told to speak against Israel in the majority of cases. 

Ez 28 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

In  Jesus prophetic office He came to speak against Israel, as in the example of Ezek. 

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This is a very interesting verse in the Church Published KJV BUT that is another subject.

Who is that Ancient of Days?

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Kevin Deegan wrote:

DAVE:  ???  I consider it important to consider what Son of man means.  Try separating Son from man.  Think of the man part as being a heavenly man, who is exalted rather than a lowly earth type man who is a sinner.

 

Show me just ONE time in the Bible, where the Son of Man refers to the Father & I will eat my Truth Horn

DAVEH:  Where did you get that idea, Kevin?  Son of Man refers to Jesus, and I stipulated such several days ago.  What I am trying to point out to you is the root meaning of Son of Man....in that Jesus' Father is a man who has been exalted and now resides in heaven.  That's why he is called Heavenly Father, which is distinctly different than the Son of Man.  Heavenly Father is the Man part of the title for Jesus, who is the Son of Man.

    Am I confusing you more, Kevin?

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Kevin Deegan wrote:

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Kevin Deegan wrote:

Be glad to discuss this with you.

 

To start let's look at John chapter 3 verse 13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you agree:

1) Jesus was the one who said this

DAVEH:  Yes.

KD says OK

2) Jesus is the "Son of Man"

DAVEH:  Yes again.
KD says OK
    Do you believe Jesus is literally the Son of Man, Kevin?  Was Jesus the son of a woman?  Yes, I think you would believe so as well.  Then do you believe Son of Man and son of woman are synonymous, Kevin?

KD says WOOOOAH!

DAVEH:   Am I losing you on this one, Kevin?  Let me put it another way.  Jesus is the Son of [an exalted] Man [of Holiness] who remained in heaven when Jesus came to the earth.  Does that help?

    Do you believe Jesus' Father in Heaven is a man?  I suspect not.....  Then why do you think he was considered the Son of Man?  Could his father be a man?

KD says It is too deep for you if you can't even follow this, besides you cahnged the subject

DAVEH:  To me it seems simple....Jesus is the Son of Man.  You apparently agree with that.  You just think the Man part applies to his earthly heritage.  I believe the Man refers to his Heavenly Father's heritage, as his Father in Heaven is a Holy Man who is exalted.

 

Then the question is;

Read the verse and tell me:

Where was the "Son of Man"?

DAVEH:  I'd say the Son (Jesus) was on the earth, while the Man (his Father in Heaven) was in heaven.  I think that is well illustrated in the baptism of Jesus (Mt 3:17) when.....
Kevin says your Mormon indoctrination is showing.

DAVEH:  Yes, I have always admitted my LDS bias.

let's work on the original subject and I will be glad to revisit this and answer your questions.

Read the verse again: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

KD says Again WHERE is the son of man NOT who or what is the Son of man

DAVE:  ???  I consider it important to consider what Son of man means.  Try separating Son from man.  Think of the man part as being a heavenly man, who is exalted rather than a lowly earth type man who is a sinner.

Who came down from Heaven? Who will ascend? Who is IN Heaven? The SUBJECT of this English sentence is the "Son of Man" Jesus Christ

DAVEH:  Just consider what Son of Man implies.  I believe it is suggesting that Jesus has a divine heritage that comes from a holy man....his Father in Heaven.

Hint: the son of man came down to earth and stands speaking saying the son of man is in heaven.

DAVEH:   I am suggesting you ponder if he didn't really mean it to be understood as.......

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of [that holy exalted]  man which is [remaining] in heaven.

Jesus Christ is EVERYWHERE Present

DAVEH:   I respectfully disagree, Kevin.  IF he were EVERYWHERE Present, then why did he descend into hell after his death?.....or, why did he ascend up to heaven after his death?  If he were already there, would it have been necessary for him to either descend, or ascend?

    Are there any other passages that you feel validate your theory that God is omnipresent?

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

........clearly indicates Jesus' Heavenly Father was the one in heaven, while Jesus was on the earth.  Do you disagree, Kevin?  If so....do you think Jesus was using a ventriloquism to project the voice from heaven? 

    BTW........I am very interested to know if you believe Jesus is literally the Son of Man, Kevin.  And...how do you contrast that to him being the Son of Woman?  Do you believe Jesus' father is a man?

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Kevin Deegan wrote:

Jesus is Revealed in the Holy Bible as OMNIPRESENT

John 3 the son of man who came down and yet is IN Heaven

DAVEH:  I guess you'll have to spell it out for me, Kevin.  I see nothing in ch 3 that lends support to your theory.

God the Father is Revealed the Holy Bible as OMNIPRESEN

Does he not fill Heaven & Earth?

These are clear teachings of the Bible

DAVEH:  Give me some Bible references, and the let's discuss it.

not some Church council or some Prophet.

 

All I need is a 5th grade education so I can read the Old Black Book

DAVEH:  I'll ask you the same question I asked John........How much of what you believe about the omnipresence of God is based on the T-Doctrine?

Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 1/21/2005 7:24:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH:  ???  Why do you think Jesus is omnipresent

Well,   because He is God.

DAVEH:   But why do you define God as omnipresent?  Is it due to the T-Doctrine?  

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