[TruthTalk] A&E & Salvation

[Dave Hansen]

DAVEH:   Bill & John.....I hope you don't mind me changing the subject line to more accurately reflect the nature of this discussion.    And, I'll respond to both of your posts in this RED response.... Bill Taylor wrote: Hi DaveH,   I am looking forward to John's presentation. In the meantime I will send a couple words to wet your appetite. The technical term for Jesus in the incarnation is the "hypostatic union." DAVEH:  Yikes.....I've never heard that term before! "Protestants" as well as RCs believe that Jesus was/is fully God and fully human, two natures in one person. DAVEH:  We believe similarly, though I do not believe he became exalted until after his resurrection.     When you say that Protestants believe Jesus was fully God, there must be some qualification since you apparently believe that one cannot see God.   Yet, many saw Jesus.  How is that reconciled in Protestantism, Bill? Throughout his tenure on earth the divine nature worked in unison with the human nature toward a perfect union: "though he was Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been perfected, he became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Heb 5.8-9). DAVEH:  That sounds somewhat legalistic.  I've been led to believe that Protestants believe they can be saved without obedience.   Do you have a way to reconcile that seeming contradiction?  When Jesus breathed his last on the cross, the two natures were fully reconciled within the one person of Christ; no longer was there any tension between God and "man": "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit"; "for God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (Luk 23.46; 2Cor 5.19). DAVEH:  From my perspective, I would think that happened when his resurrected body ascended to his Father in Heaven.  When Jesus said...... ......Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:....   Jn 20:17 ......it seems like something distinctly divine happened to him upon his ascension.  Prior to that event, he requested no physical contact.  Yet subsequent to the ascension, he welcomed physical contact as evidenced by his invitation........ .......handle me and see.....    Lk 24:39 ......to be touched by his disciples.  So, Bill.......do you recognize any difference between the mortal God (Jesus in a flesh and blood state), and God (Jesus in a body of flesh and bone) after his ascension?   Take care, my friend. I am off to my son's regional wrestling tournament. Go Michael!   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Definition of Mormon Please In a message dated 2/4/2005 11:46:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH:  Yes, John.  I understand that you see it that way.  But why?  Why do you think Jesus represents the Son of Mankind?  I'm not sure that makes any sense to me.  I view Jesus as being a divine being, a deity from before the world was created.  Do you not believe likewise?  Isn't that why he was called the Son of God?  Do you think he became less than the Son of God, or less than divine when he was on the earth?  It seems to me that for Protestants to consider him reduced to mankind status would be contrary to his divine authorship.  In fact, that's the charge many have leveled against LDS theology, that we have reduced God to mankind status in effect.  So it somewhat surprises me that you would suggest such, JD. I will take some time and try to give thoughtful answer.    I will tell you that I believe that He has always been both the Son of Man and the Son of God  ....   and as such, He is both mankind's represenative, if you will, and God's. DAVEH:  OK.   I understand your perspective on that.  Though I'm not sure why it is relevant to salvation from a Protestant's perspective.  Would anything be different IF he had not represented mankind?  IOW.....Could Jesus have saved mankind in any other way?  Being crucified as he was was pretty brutal even for God.   Why (from a Protestant's perspective) could the Lord devised another plan of salvation prior to A&E falling?  From my perspective, that Jesus was our Redeemer before the earth was even formed presupposes God expected A&E to fall, and proceeded with the creation anyway.  To me....that is very significant.  Do you recognize any particular importance to the plan of salvation unfolding as it did?  IOW....Do you believe God intended A&E to fall?     His was a ministry of reconcilation.  I can't imagine "reconciliation" as having any importance whatsoever if did not or does not include the bringing  together of man and God in His [Christ's} Continuing Existence.  DAVEH:  As you must know, LDS theology takes that a step further by suggesting Jesus was showing us the way we could become perfect, as is God.  IOW....we can become one with God. The study will be for my own good  -- but I will be happy to share it with you. DAVEH:  Thanx John.....I'll look forward to your comments. Have a good evening.   And go Pats.  DAVEH:   Apparently, your prayers have been answered!   :-) JD -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.